Martin de Vos, "St. Luke Painting the Portrait of the Virgin Mary"
Posted on 10/18/2009 2:18:47 PM PDT by NYer
She left out the part about space aliens using anti-gravity devices to build the pyramids.
According to the USCCB site: [17] But they doubted: the Greek can also be translated, "but some doubted." The verb occurs elsewhere in the New Testament only in Matthew 14:31 where it is associated with Peter's being of "little faith." For the meaning of that designation, see the note on Matthew 6:30 [30 18 If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith?].
Sometimes the obvious is simply staring us in the face. Like the disciples who went away when our Lord said that they would have to "eat His flesh and drink His blood", they felt this was too difficult to accept. Oftentimes I reflect on what life was like back then and how exciting it must have been to be a disciple of Jesus but then I recognize that many of His followers were simple men, drawn to His words but weak when it came time to accept some of His preaching and actions. We still see this today.
The “some” who doubted are never really identified and should come as no surprise. Actually, if nobody doubted this could be viewed as unnatural and contrived.
Let me provide an example.
If there are 123 bales of wool missing, and one witness on the stand says, that there were exactly that amount of 123 bales of wool missing and another says that about a 100 were missing. It’s fair to assume that the latter is stating the truth as opposed to the former. Why? Because the latter is attempting to give his best recollection.
If St. Matthew had said “all” believed it would be less credible than if, as he said, “some” doubted. So your passage proves the authenticity of St. Matthew’s Gospel but does not dilute the physical manifestation of a real person (as opposed to a ghost) having a meal as evidence in the Emmaus passage.
Yes. The sequence is: Jesus resurrects, and appears before the disciples. They get scared thinking he is a ghost. he eats fish and they are relieved because ghosts can't eat...or something like that. Then he blows on them and says "receive the Holy Ghost." (cf John 20:22)
But Matthew recounts a different story. He says that after all this, on the Pentecost, Jesus commands the disciples to meet him at Galilee. The eleven disciples show up and when they saw him there, they worshiped him but some doubted (Mat 28:17). So, we have evidence that SOME doubted all along and until the very last moment even though they saw him eat fish and even tough they received the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, not all of the disciples' eyes were opened when they saw him eat fish, or even after they received the Holy Ghost, as some have asserted here.
But that's not what you said. You said that once they (the disciples) saw him eat fish their eyes were opened and they believed. There were only 11 disciples to see Jesus ascend into heaven. There was no one else there. Of those some still doubted even though they saw him eat fish, and even after they all received the Holy Ghost.
Obviously, not all of the 11 the disciples believed even after they saw him eat fish or after they received the Holy Ghost.
Now, depending on which version of the Gospels you read, some say that only Thomas didn't believe, but then that runs counter to Matthew 28:17.
It doesn't prove anything. The eleven spent almost 40 days with risen Jesus; they ate with him and they received the HS and some, according to Matthew, doubted nevertheless. We are talking the eleven and no one else. Maybe that's why only two suppsedly wrote the Gospels. (Luke and Mark were not there; only Matthew and John were supposedly there).
But you initially claimed that all of their eyes were opened and they believed.
Not all his disciples were with Christ when he broke bread at the residence of one of them on the road to Emmaus: There were only two.
Here’s the full passage:
As they came near the village to which they were going, he walked ahead as if he were going on. But they urged him strongly, saying, ‘Stay with us, because it is almost evening and the day is now nearly over.’ So he went in to stay with them. When he was at the table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight.
They said to each other, ‘Were not our hearts burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?’
That same hour they got up and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven and their companions gathered together. They were saying, ‘The Lord has risen indeed, and he has appeared to Simon!’ Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he had been made known to them in the breaking of the bread.
- Luke 24:12-35
Martin de Vos, "St. Luke Painting the Portrait of the Virgin Mary"
I am sorry, you really don't get it. The "two" were women not his original pick of 12 disciples (now only eleven, minus Judas Iscariot). He didn't appear to the disciples but to the women, and even this acocunt does not match the account of others.
Jesus did appear to the rest, except to Thomas, whose absence is another story. But all, save for Thomas, believed according to John.
According to Matthew some of the 11 didn't believe even after 40 days. Accoridng to John the only one who didn't believe was Thomas and he became 'convinced' when he touched his wounds (nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit).
If you find it a little confusing, that's because it is.
No- the two were NOT women with whom He stayed the night and broke bread.
They were both MEN who were conversing with Christ on the road to Emmaus. One of whom was reputedly the Evangelist St. Luke himself and the other was Clophas, brother of St. Joseph (Jesus’ uncle). Check out the hyperlinks to this text.
More on the Emmaus passage.
1. The two were not women.
2. I simply quoted the Luke passage which said the eyes of the disciples who were conversing with Him “were opened.”
Here’s one exegetical insight.
Then there is the passage written here of the trip to Emmaus. We’re told that one of the men in this passage is Cleopas. He is reputed by tradition to have been the brother of Joseph, husband of Jesus’ mother Mary - therefore Jesus’ uncle. Again by tradition, the unnamed companion to Cleopas is the evangelist Luke himself. The mysterious stranger walks with them. The men are shocked that anyone could have been in Jerusalem and not known of the events that have happened there. Their downcast story tells us of their hope that Jesus was the redeemer of Israel, the awaited Messiah - and we must imagine their expectations and hopes were for a political Messiah. But the stranger opens up to them, illuminating the passages and prophecies of the Old Testament, and chastising them for their slowness and lack of faith and understanding.
As they walk on, they invite the stranger to stay with them. He breaks bread and distributes it, as they sit down to eat. And at once their eyes are opened. It is Jesus! And he vanishes from their sight. To me, this wonderful tale details the way that Spirit works in our lives. This is the resurrection, that He Lives - with us and in us and among us. This is why scripture can still inspire and illuminate, because Spirit is with us, His spirit is with us - it edifies and illuminates, it can cheer us and find the ray of light in a bad situation, give meaning to events that we experience, and shape commitment to what we will do with our lives. The breaking of the blessed bread is of course a mirror of the Eucharist, and in turn stands for all that we expect of this Risen Christ and His spirit in our lives: distributing not just faith and remembrance, but illumination, edification, understanding, a reason to go on, and hope. And so much more.
You have the Pentecost wrong: it’s the 5th sabbath/Sunday after passover/Easter - 49 (or 50, if passover or Easter is included) not 40 days. It’s the day that the Lord gave Moses the Law, too.
The Pentecost occurred the day or so after his Ascention. I did not mean to imply it was on the day of the Penetecost.
I read the whole thing again. Luke has him ascending into heaven on the fourth day after crucifixtion...whatever. Luke is just telling popular stories.
Look, the whole thing is ridiculous. Matthew 28:1, 9 says Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene and another Mary. Mark 16:9 and John 20:11-14 say it was only to Mary Magdalene. Luke 24:13-31 says to Cleopas and another person (allegedly Luke), and Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:4-5 says it was Peter!
“Luke is just telling popular stories”
This cannot be a serious and informed comment.
Matthew 28:9 claims Magdalene recognized Jesus when he first appeared to her. John 20:14 claims she didn't recognize him when he first appeared to her, and Luke 24:23 says Jesus did not appear to her; instead she had a vision of angels telling her he was alive!
According to 1 Corinthians 15:5 there were 13 apostles, Cephas (Peter) "and the twelve." But John 20:24 says it was 10! Matthew 28:16-17, Mark 16:14, and Luke 24:33-37 say 11.
According to Luke 24:33-34, the disciples had no reaction to the story of Cleopas and the other man, but Mark 16:12-13 says none believed them.
Also John 20:17 says that Jesus could not be touched " for I am not yet ascended to my Father." Yet in John 20:26-27 Jesus is telling Thomas to touch his wounds.
Etc, etc.
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