Posted on 10/13/2009 12:56:05 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
Liberal and conservative Catholics alike would prefer not to discuss how the Catholic Church, here and abroad, functions like a liberal/left-wing political lobby.
Some pro-life Catholics are acting shocked that the Vatican warmly greeted the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to President Obama, who is pro-abortion. They don't seem to understand that the Vatican and Obama agree on most major international issues.
This is the untold story-how Obama and the Vatican accept major ingredients of what has been called a New World Order.
Another untold story is how, despite a disagreement over abortion, the U.S. Catholic Bishops and the Obama Administration agree on major aspects of so-called health care reform.
(Excerpt) Read more at worldviewtimes.com ...
Thanks, ZC.
Whether you recognize and accept it or not the Catholic Church and its 1.4 billion members is a global institution. It is also the largest US faith. The Church has a duty to God and to mankind to be an instrument of Gods Word. The constitution prohibits governmental involvement in religion, but not religious involvement in government.
The "separation of Church and state" does not mean -- and it can never mean -- separating our Catholic faith from our public witness, our political choices and our political actions. That kind of separation would require Christians to deny who we are; to repudiate Jesus when he commands us to be "leaven in the world" and to "make disciples of all nations." That kind of radical separation steals the moral content of a society
All political leaders of draw their authority from God. We owe no leader any submission or cooperation in the pursuit of grave evil. In fact, we have the duty to change bad laws and resist grave evil in our public life, both by our words and our non-violent actions. The truest respect we can show to civil authority is the witness of our Catholic faith and our moral convictions, without excuses or apologies.
Thanks for the ping!
Thanks for your kind reply.
Just got home. Maybe after shower will check on that other thing and get back to you.
I have nothing but affection for you as a Brother . . . regardless of whatever I was blathering about.
Those replies were all to Natural Law etc. You happened to be amongst umpteen dozen on the END TIMES ping list that I pinged to one or more of those replies . . . for your input or exhortation or rebuttle or whatever y’all felt led to contribute.
Sorry for any confusion. I can’t find anything I was ranting to you about . . . clicking back several iterations of conneted replies and posts.
LOL! My priest used that exact joke recently in his homily.
“Huh? The guy who praised Obama’s Nobel was one official in the Vatican Press Office. This got turned into “the Vatican said” by the left-wing media, as though it were an ex cathedra Papal statement.”
Exactly - everytime I see a headline that says “Vatican says”....blah blah blah....99% of the time it’s just some dunderhead who works at that newspaper mouthing off.
When the pope says something substantive the headline reads “Pope says”...and in that case you have to go to the vatican website to get the full context of all the stuff they cherry picked for the articles.
Thanks. I think.
Maybe I’m tired.
Just played about 20 games of Chinese chess . . .
but I don’t understand the message your ?sarcasm? is trying to communicate. But I’d like to understand.
In Tenebris Lux - In darkness, light. It is refreshing to see a post that is not a recitation of falsehoods whose only merit is that they fit a preconceived notion and satisfy a severe case of crosier envy.
Hmmmmmm
Liberal Roman Catholic social theory is what the church at Rome is. It’s an oxymoron to say the papacy is conservative. The papacy is autocratic. It believes in a centralized power structure which controls all and therefore must go unchallenged.
It is the original “Big Brother.”
####################
INDEED.
INDEED.
>>> Whether you recognize and accept it or not the Catholic Church and its 1.4 billion members is a global institution. It is also the largest US faith. The Church has a duty to God and to mankind to be an instrument of Gods Word. The constitution prohibits governmental involvement in religion, but not religious involvement in government. <<<
What you present here is a list of irrelevancies. The argument I’ve been making is that _CiV_ — and thus by extension BXVI, the Vatican, and the Church of Rome — is engaging in advocacy of global policies in a globalist fashion for globalist ends. Whether my argument is true or not is a question of fact, for it refers to a public document that can be referred to by others to affirm or rebut my claims.
To state, as you do, that “The Church has a duty to God and to mankind to be an instrument of Gods Word,” does not amount to a rebuttal of my position. One can easily argue that being “an instrument of God’s word” entails that the Church of Rome should intervene in “technical questions” and propose and advocate “systems or models of social organization.” In fact, this is what I believe _CiV_ does on almost every page (and if you don’t believe that _CiV_ is advocating intervention in “technical questions,” please look again at the second paragraph of Section 61; section 51 is interesting, too, esp. the first sentence of the second paragraph).
>>> The “separation of Church and state” does not mean — and it can never mean — separating our Catholic faith from our public witness, our political choices and our political actions. That kind of separation would require Christians to deny who we are; to repudiate Jesus when he commands us to be “leaven in the world” and to “make disciples of all nations.” That kind of radical separation steals the moral content of a society <<<
There’s a big difference between fulfilling the Great Commission and being an instrument’s in God’s great plan of Salvation and “preaching,” as _CiV_ does, that “The international community has an urgent DUTY to find institutional means of REGULATING the exploitation of non-renewable resources, involving poor countries in the process, in order to plan together for the future” (Section 49, my emphasis).
There’s a huge difference between recognizing, as a Christian, that abortion is intrinsically evil and should not be supported by word or deed or policy, and recognizing, as _CiV_ claims we must do on a GLOBAL scale, that “development aid for poor countries must be considered a valid means for creating wealth for all” (WHATEVER that means; cf. Section 60).
>>> All political leaders of draw their authority from God. We owe no leader any submission or cooperation in the pursuit of grave evil. In fact, we have the duty to change bad laws and resist grave evil in our public life, both by our words and our non-violent actions. The truest respect we can show to civil authority is the witness of our Catholic faith and our moral convictions, without excuses or apologies. <<<
Mostly true, but quite beside the point in regards to the issue at hand. I find the institution of things like a reformed UN, or a global political, juridical and economic order to be a prime example of the “grave evil” you speak of. Such a global order is thus something that should be resisted by all Christians and “men of good will” in their public life. My concern, and the concern of others as expressed on this thread and elsewhere, is that _CiV_ — and thus by extension BXVI, the Vatican, and the Church of Rome — is advocating the creation of a “domesticated” version of this “grave evil.” And thus we are displeased, to put it gently.
It’s as if the _CiV_ is based on the belief that the Dragon can be tamed or that a lasting Tower of Babel can be built (this time, for sure!), and that with the use of magic concepts like “subsidiarity” and “integral human development” the evil and tyranny inherent in such a global system can be subdued. This strikes me as being either the height of foolishness — or despair.
Well put.
I’m not sure that any Roman Catholic’s are reading anything.
They just perceive that some gnat has brushed up against their hot-buttons [i.e. that some anything or anyone has DARED to assert that some part of their RELIGION, RELIGIOSITY, INSITITUTION, RITUALS, PERSONAGES, HABITS, OBSESSIONS, IDOLATRIES ARE THE LEAST BIT LESS THAN PERFECT] so their volcanoes are set to spew and spew they do.
I wonder what it’s like to live on such a hair trigger cliff age of rage all the time. Sad.
Riiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhhhhtttttttttt
out of one side of a few fingers . . . out of a lot of sides of a lot more fingers, is a whole ‘NOTHER story.
INDEED TO THE MAX.
Now that you mention it, where IS Petronski?
Oh well, time to get some shut-eye. G’night.
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