Posted on 10/07/2009 3:25:53 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
Greetings in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ! This brief letter is written to those of you who have been left behind. May I calm your great anxiety and fears with this great message of hope! God loves you and cares greatly for you. He has a great plan, purpose and future for you and your life. He wants only and always the highest and best things for you. So please give your ear and full attention to the words that follow. The days ahead will be days that will not be easy - in fact they will be quite horrendous. But be of good cheer and of good courage. Have Faith in Almighty God and His Word.
Jesus said, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but hath everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (John 3:16-17).
God so loved us that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for your sins and mine! God has thus provided a way to restore fellowship with sinners (all humans), and to remove His righteous wrath that was upon us because of our sins and trespasses
(Excerpt) Read more at theignorantfishermen.com ...
If God converts all Israel, then all Israel will become a Christian nation and they will be grafted back to the tree of which we're a part of. There isn't a duel system here nor does God play favorites.
That's my reading of Scripture, too.
Calvin says this about Romans 11:26 ("And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob")...
Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith. As it is written, etc. He does not confirm the whole passage by this testimony of Isaiah, (Isaiah 59:20,) but only one clause, — that the children of Abraham shall be partakers of redemption. But if one takes this view, — that Christ had been promised and offered to them, but that as they rejected him, they were deprived of his grace; yet the Prophet’s words express more, even this, — that there will be some remnant, who, having repented, shall enjoy the favor of deliverance. Paul, however, does not quote what we read in Isaiah, word for word; “come,” he says, “shall a Redeemer to Sion, and to those who shall repent of iniquity in Jacob, saith the Lord.” (Isaiah 59:20.) But on this point we need not be very curious; only this is to be regarded, that the Apostles suitably apply to their purpose whatever proofs they adduce from the Old Testament; for their object was to point but passages, as it were by the finger, that readers might be directed to the fountain itself. But though in this prophecy deliverance to the spiritual people of God is promised, among whom even Gentiles are included; yet as the Jews are the first-born, what the Prophet declares must be fulfilled, especially in them: for that Scripture calls all the people of God Israelites, is to be ascribed to the pre-eminence of that nation, whom God had preferred to all other nations. And then, from a regard to the ancient covenant, he says expressly, that a Redeemer shall come to Sion; and he adds, that he will redeem those in Jacob who shall return from their transgression. By these words God distinctly claims for himself a certain seed, so that his redemption may be effectual in his elect and peculiar nation. And though fitter for his purpose would have been the expression used by the Prophet, “shall come to Sion;” yet Paul made no scruple to follow the commonly received translation, which reads, “The Redeemer shall come forth from Mount Sion.” And similar is the case as to the second part, “He shall turn away iniquities from Jacob:” for Paul thought it enough to regard this point only, — that as it is Christ’s peculiar office to reconcile to God an apostate and faithless people, some change was surely to be looked for, lest they should all perish together.26. And so all Israel shall be saved, etc.
I think Paul was telling us that eventually the Jews will be converted to Christ, and thus His Gospel is to be devoutly preached to them and all men. If not, it is to our shame.
If you look at Romans 11:7, it states:
Paul goes through this chapter and makes a clear distinction the Israel that has NOT obtained salvation and the Israel that has. There is a surviving remnant that believe in Christ and they continue to believe in Christ (even to this day).
It may be possible that at some future time God will open the hearts of the non-believing Jews. But then they won't be Jews anymore. As Paul states in Romans 11:7, they will be the elect. But I wouldn't put all my eggs in this basket as the text is unclear.
I have a very difficult time in making out exactly what end time prophesy means. My beef with the dispensationalist model isn't based upon trying to interpret eschatology. Rather it's based upon the fact that it deliberately distorts the history of God's people, making out some type of dual relationship; that God loves the children of Israel. That is simply not true. There is the elect and then there is the unelect, those who are slaves to righteousness and been set free and those who are still in the bondage of sin.
I would also like to address what God loves but there isn't much time. As shocking as this may sound I believe there is ample evidence to suggest that God loves His work and perfection. In short God loves Himself. If this sound narcissistic, then one needs to remember that God is perfect love, peace, justice and everything else that is perfect. What's not to love? God would not be God if He did not love these things. All of us should love God to the greatest degree possible simply because of these traits. The fact that we don't reveals the evil, wickedness, and darkness of our hearts.
Why I bring this up is that God is perfect and pure. Man is evil and haters of God (Roman 3). God has to reach into this disgusting mess to save any of us (which is to His great glory). God does not have a special love for any of us including Israel.
This is one area where you are wrong. If God doesn't love the children of Israel then why seal 144,000 of them to come through the Tribulation? We are blessed because of their blindness but when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God saves them.
God does not have a special love for any of us including Israel.
I agree with you about our fallen state, but why would God make the covenant with Abraham if God is not going to keep it?
The eleventh chapter of Romans deals with the subject of Israel’s future; the time will come when Gentile blessing will cease and Israel again will be blessed of God. At the beginning the question is asked, “Hath God cast away his people?” The answer is, for the moment, Israel has been set aside and that Gentiles are in the place of primary blessing. “Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness?” In other words, the present “fullness” of the Gentiles is contrasted with the future “fullness” of Israel. “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own, conceits: that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” It is clear from the passage that the contrast is between the culmination of present state of the Gentiles and the future state of Israel.
There is a reference to, “the times of the Gentiles”, a political concept, in Luke 21:24, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. The word “until” introduces a contrasting time factor which maybe contemporaneous with “until the fullness of the Gentiles” in Romans 11:25, however the end points of the two periods may be somewhat different depending on whether one understands the tribulation period to be a time of “blessing” for Israel.
In either concept, Israel as a nation and race will be dealt with again.
It wasn't God who didn't keep the covenant. It was the Jews.
And God ordained this in order to show that a covenant of works does not save. Only grace through faith saves. Abraham was saved by faith, not works.
"His people" are now and have always been all believing Jews and Gentiles. "Neither Jew nor Greek." "All one in Christ Jesus."
Amen! And God willing, their number will grow and prosper according to the word.
“”His people” are now and have always been all believing Jews and Gentiles. “Neither Jew nor Greek.” “All one in Christ Jesus.”
Not so fast there Elect Lady,
Daniel 12:1, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
Elect elder, how do you construe that verse to contradict “all believing Jews and Gentiles are His people,” chosen and elect from before the foundation of the world?
No argument from me.
Oh Elect Lady,
Who is the subject of Romans 9-11 and especially 11? Is it not Israel?
“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”
“Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”
Well at least we aren't "bashing" each other. ;0
What we're talking about is AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Romans 11 is telling us that Israel is going to be saved after us.
There is not going to be any tribulation. When Christ return that will be that. The Mayan calendar says so. :O)
... but why would God make the covenant with Abraham if God is not going to keep it?
He did keep it and he continues to keep it. We are the children of Abraham just as much as Issac and Jacob were. Paul makes a point of saying that Ismael was not a child of Abraham. What is the difference? One had faith and one did not. We are children according to the faith.
If anyone can do it, you can. 8~)
I would say Romans 11 lays out the entire history of Israel/Gentile purpose; not just Israel's future. Paul states that there is a remnant of Jews who believe. For the rest their eyes have been darkened. Paul makes a distinction early on of two separate sets of Israelites; the believing and unbelieving.
Unbelieving Israel has been cut off of the tree and set aside for the Gentiles. Gentiles have been grafted into the believing Israel.
And then Paul says this:
Now does this sound even remotely like a statement of certainty? It sounds to me as if Paul is saying that if this part of Israel that has been broken off, comes to believe; then God will grafted them back onto the tree. So when we finally arrive at Romans 11:26, we know that God will save all of Israel whoever that may be.
In Galatians 6:16 Paul specifically calls believers the "Israel of God". I don't think there is any misunderstanding in who Paul thought was Israel and according to Romans 11 he makes a clear distinction between the believing and unbelieving Israel.
“In Galatians 6:16 Paul specifically calls believers the “Israel of God””
Galatians 6:15, 16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
If this passage does use the term “Israel of God” for the church, it is the only passage in the entire New Testament where there is any evidence in the text for such a conclusion. In the context, it is by no means a clear assertion that the church is the Israel of God. The important fact is that those who trust in Christ who died for them become a new creature quite apart from any rite of circumcision or its lack. Then he adds, “And upon the Israel of God.” The use of the Greek kai is best translated by the word and, and only rarely is used in the sense of even as would be required if the term Israel of God is entirely equivalent to the expression “as many as walk by this rule.” The most natural explanation of this is that Paul is stating that anyone, whether Jew or Gentile, who walks by this is worthy of his benediction, but especially is this so for the Israel of God, i.e., Israelites who are the godly remnant of this age; believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. The passage does not state that the Israel of a God and the church, i.e., the new creation, are coextensive.
Paul’s statement is simply recognition of his particular interest in Israelites who have come to know Christ and expresses the hope that they would enter into the freedom of grace of which he is such an able exponent in the epistle to the Galatians. Both the nation Israel is contrasted to the church as a whole and spiritual Israel is contrasted to Gentile Christians in the body of Christ. Other texts and arguments such as Galatians 6:15, 16, Matthew 21:43, and Romans 11, when properly interpreted, would seem to confirm that Israel continues to be addressed as a nation and is distinguished both from Gentiles and the church.
Thanks, TC. This is the framing of the issue I have been looking for.
If "Israel of God" is used for the invisible church in Galatians 6, then we have evidence Paul believes that statement to be true. Throughout the New Testament, Paul speaks of the ancient Israelites; he speaks of the Jews of his day; and he speaks of the "Israel of God," the "new Jerusalem," Christ's church on earth made up of all Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ who are all now "one in Christ Jesus.
There is "evidence Paul believes that statement to be true" in other places in Scripture. Here's a very good article on (Dispensational) Premillenialism which not only offers an honest explanation of what dispensationalism teaches, but also a sound refutation of it through Scripture...
I. THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH The following notes from Gen.15:18 in the original Scofield Reference Bible articulate the basic features of this separation: ‘I will make of thee a great nation.’ Fulfilled in a three-fold way: (a) In a natural posterity - ‘as the dust of the earth’ (Gen.13:16; Jn.8:37), viz., the Hebrew people. (b) In a spiritual posterity - ‘look now toward heaven…so shall thy seed be’ (Jn.8:39, Rom.4:16-17; 9:7-8; Gal.3:6-7, 29), viz, all men of faith, whether Jew or Gentile. (c) Fulfilled also through Ishmael (Gen.17:18-20) The Christian is of the heavenly seed of Abraham (Gen.15:5-6; Gal.3:29), and partakes of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen.15:18, note); but Israel as a nation always has its own place, and is yet to have its greatest exaltation as the earthly people of God. (SRB note on Rom.11:1) As these notes indicate, classical Dispensationalism regards God’s purposes in history as twofold, corresponding to these two distinct peoples, the one earthly, the other heavenly. God’s dispensational dealings with these two peoples have two quite distinct ends in view: the salvation of an earthly people that is consummated in an eternal kingdom upon the new earth, and the salvation of a heavenly people that is consummated in an eternal kingdom in the new heavens. Thus, just as God has two distinct peoples and programs of salvation in history, so he has in mind two quite distinct eternal destinies. The line of separation that keeps Israel and the church apart in history will continue into the final state in which the earthly and heavenly natures of these peoples will correspond to salvation blessings that are distinctively earthly and heavenly. This separation between Israel and the church corresponds to Dispensationalism’s emphasis upon a literalistic interpretation of Old Testament prophecies on the one hand, and the contrast between the present ‘age of the church’ and the coming ‘age of the kingdom’ or the millennium on the other. The prophecies of the Old Testament, insofar as they are directed to the earthly people of God, Israel, must be understood in their literal or earthly sense. A promise of the possession of the land, for example, must mean the earthly property of Canaan. A promise of a restored temple must refer to the stone temple in Jerusalem. The present age of the church, because it represents God’s dealings with his heavenly people, must also be regarded as a ‘parenthesis’ period of history, a period between God’s former dealings and his soon-to-be-resumed dealings with Israel in the millennial age to come. During the present age of God’s dealings with the church, his dealings with Israel have been temporarily suspended, but when the time of fulfillment comes (preceded by the rapture) the prophetic promises will be fulfilled. Because these were directed to Israel, they are silent for the most part respecting God’s dealings with the church, dealings comprised by the mystery which God had kept hidden until the gospel age. In light of this brief sketch of the classical dispensationalist separation between Israel and the church, consideration of the questions, Who, according to the teaching of the Bible, is the ‘Israel of God’? Does the Bible actually draw this line of separation between these two peoples of God, Israel and the church? To answer these questions, consider several features of the Bible’s teaching about the Israel of God. II. THE CHURCH IS NO PARENTHESIS In the New Testament, the church is commonly understood to be in direct continuity with the people of God in the Old Testament; the images used in the Old Testament to describe the people of the Lord are used in the New Testament to describe the church. The New Testament word for the church, ekklesia, is the equivalent of the common Old Testament word, qahal (Septuagint rendering), meaning the ‘assembly’ or ‘gathering’ of the people of Israel. The New Testament church is also called the ‘temple’ of God (1 Cor.3:16-17; Eph.2:21-22), evoking the imagery and symbolism of the Old Testament, in which the temple was regarded to be the special place of the Lord’s dwelling in the midst of his people. Just as the temple was the place where fellowship between the Lord and his people was provided for (through the sacrificial rites and ordinances) and experienced, so the church is the place of the Lord’s dwelling by his Holy Spirit. Accordingly, the church can also be identified with Jerusalem, the city of God, which is above and which comprises believers from every tribe and tongue and nation. ‘But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect.’ Heb.12:22-23 Rather than being regarded as an interruption in God’s dealings with his people, Israel, the church of the new covenant is regarded as the fulfillment of the Lord’s promises to the people of God of the old covenant. The great covenant promise made to Abraham was that in his seed all the families and peoples would be blessed (Gen.12:3; 22:18). Throughout the Old Testament, the Lord’s dealings with Israel are never isolated from his promises of redemption for all the nations and peoples of the earth. This theme of the salvation of the nations is interwoven throughout the fabric of the Old Testament in the provisions in the law for the inclusion in the community of Israel of strangers and aliens. The genealogy of Jesus Christ includes names of Gentiles whose incorporation into the family of David (and of God) serves as a reminder that God’s saving purpose never fixed exclusively upon Israel as a racial or national entity (Mt.1:1-17). The same theme is also in the explicit language of the Psalter, the song book of Israel’s worship, and in the prophets. The Psalms contain references throughout to the Lord’s purpose to gather the nations into the fellowship of his people. Psalm 2 includes a record of the Lord’s vow to grant the nations to his beloved Son. Psalm 22 speaks of how ‘all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee (v.27). Psalm 67 calls all the nations to join Israel in singing God’s praises. These are not isolated notes; they echo and re-echo throughout the Psalms. Furthermore, in the prophets, many promises speak of the day when the Gentile nations will be joined with the people of Israel in the service and praise of the Lord (for example, Isa.45:22; 49:6; Mal.1:1). The simplest understanding of the Old and the New Testament people of the Lord recognizes the church to be his new covenant people in direct communion with Israel. Though salvation may historically be to the Jew first and, secondly, also to the Gentile (Rom.1:16), the Lord is gathering to himself in history only one people, comprising Jew and Gentile alike.One of the principal tenets of Dispensational Premillennialism is the strict separation between God’s earthly people, Israel, and his heavenly people, the church. It could even be argued that this separation between Israel and the church is the root principle of classical - as distinguished from ‘progressive’ Dispensationalism. From this separation of an earthly and a spiritual people stems another basic feature of Dispensationalism: its insistence on a literalistic reading of the Bible. This actually stems from the insistence of classical Dispensationalism that the promises of the Lord to his earthly people, Israel, must be interpreted in a strictly literal rather than a figurative or spiritual way. Furthermore, among the seven distinct dispensations, the most important from the point of view of the future are those that reflect this separation between Israel and the church.
The article continues faithful to Scripture, IMO. There are also three other chapters from Venema's book found HERE and are very helpful in understanding there is one people of God, the same people God purposed from the foundation of the world to be brought to Him by Christ, for Christ, through Christ.
I just don't get how people miss the fact that the timing of dispensationalism's origin in the mid-nineteenth century corresponds directly to geopolitical concerns in the Mid-east. Certain groups want certain things and so they signify what they want people concerned with.
Also, it seems clear enough to me that there is no better way to disrupt Protestantism than to continue to split apart Christ's church on earth through contrary doctrines and novel interpretations that (surprise, surprise) actually deny there is a true church of Christ on earth, both visible and invisible, one which are are all called to participate in and protect through sound doctrine and Scriptural worship.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.