Posted on 09/25/2009 1:42:15 PM PDT by NYer
Heart of the Church (St. Peter in Words and Stone)
The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Saint Peter As Seen by His Successor (extraordinary document from B16 on his preaching and papacy)
Saint Peter and the Vatican, the Legacy of the Popes
Saint Peter and The Vatican - Legacy of the Popes
You made me laugh with the 3 dogs bit.
My point, and I think the point of most if not all Orthodox here, is we recognize +Peter and his successors as primus inter pares (at least if we were in communion), but do not accept that Jesus Christ bestowed upon +Peter any sort of specific authority over the entire Church to give orders and have them obeyed without question.
If he was in charge everywhere he went, he would have been the man speaking in Acts 15, for instance, instead of +James.
“Its a shame that this article presents such a half truth as this to make people think Orthodox theologians somehow or other accept the Vatican I heresy about the Pope”
How does the article do that? The question in the article is not “Vatican I heresy about the Pope,” the question is whether Peter is the rock. Fr. Stylianopoulos is quoted regarding whether Peter is the rock, not regarding the supremacy of the Pope or the relative prominence of Peter vs. others in the New Testament.
If people would only read what is written and not what they think is being said, the world would be a better place.
“I’m a bit surprised at some of this article actually...Jimmy is usually very sharp and very careful but there are some strange things here.”
If you look sharp, you’ll notice Jimmy is not the author of this series. SDG is.
“What’s funny is that almost immediately after Jesus says these words, he calls Peter “SATAN!”
What else is funny is that the article makes this very point. You are not reading the article, you are responding to what you think Catholics believe.
“That is it. One sentence, and he doesn’t even say, ‘You are number one among the Apostles.’”
You are missing the NEXT sentence. :)
***Mark, You have missed the thrust of this series. It has one purpose and one purpose only. Make Peter the rock the church is built on. From this segment;
At the same time, there have been encouraging developments. There is now near unanimity in Bible scholarship generally, Protestant as well as Catholic, that the rock on which Jesus builds his church is neither Peter’s confession, nor the faith of Peter’s confession, nor the truth that Peter confesses about Christ, nor Christ himself, but Peter himself. ***
What many people miss is that Jesus was a master verbal craftsman. He actually says both. Petros / petra. Jesus is the big rock, Peter is the little one. Jesus is the King, Peter is the steward. Jesus is Master, Peter is the servant.
***Your king might be away but mine is with me always through His Spirit. I have no need for a steward. Nor do you. BVB***
Well, I look at it this way: if Jesus wills it, who am I to argue?
***My point, and I think the point of most if not all Orthodox here, is we recognize +Peter and his successors as primus inter pares (at least if we were in communion), but do not accept that Jesus Christ bestowed upon +Peter any sort of specific authority over the entire Church to give orders and have them obeyed without question.***
And, excepting some extreme bigotry from some nominal Catholics, we overall agree with that. First amongst equals, with each bishop having jurisdiction over his diocese. THAT is Church precedence.
Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church,shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Yah'shua spoke these words.
This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.
The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Yah'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock "
e.g.
Peter himself refers to Yah'shua as the "rock" in
Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.
Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
the LORD had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede
Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.
1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like the LORD;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "The LORD is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!
Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'
Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1 Praise be to the LORD my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.
1 Peter 2:1-10NAsbU 1 Peter 2:
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word,
and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION,
so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY,
but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Then lets look at the next sentence:
Matthew 16: “19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
However, binding and loosing are NOT Peter’s prerogative alone, but a congregational function - “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. AGAIN [he repeats himself using different words] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. [And who has the authority?] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
And in John 20:
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.”
Notice this isn’t given to Peter alone, nor to just the Apostles, for one of the Twelve wasn’t even there. It is given in conjunction with being sent by God to proclaim the Gospel, and with the reception of the Holy Spirit - whom ALL Christians receive, or they are not Christians.
So...how is Peter the Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church?
It is patently clear from the Holy Word of G-dshalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
that the NAME "Rock" is a NAME that describes YHvH,
the creator of the universe.To assign YHvH's NAME to a mere mortal,
a created being, seeks to impugn and
deny the Holy Word of G-d.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
Did you actually read the article or did your knee just jerk and words spewed forth?
Yes! I have it bookmarked.
****************
Thank you, and well said.
Mr. Rogers,
Jesus empowers all of the apostles to “bind” and “loose,” but the keys of the kingdom are given only to Peter. As F.F. Bruce says:
“The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or major domo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim: ‘I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open’ (Is 22:22). So in the new community that Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward” (Hard Sayings of the Bible, 385).
In John 21, Jesus gives to Peter alone the triple commission to feed his sheep. In Luke 22, Jesus prays for Peter alone when all the disciples are to be sifted by Satan. It is Jesus who elevates Peter among (I don’t say above) the other apostles.
As you well know, among the many arguments advanced by the Latins for the subjugation of The Church to the Pope as well as his infallibility and his role as “Vicar of Christ on Earth” is the specious claim that +Peter himself is the rock upon which Christ founded his Church, Fr. Stylianopoulos’ very minority opinion (he has a number of them)to the contrary notwithstanding.
The sole purpose of articles such as these is to advance Roman claims to the right to rule over the entire Church. Taking Fr. Stylianopoulos’ comment and presenting it as if when he said it he means what the apologists for the Vatican heresies about the role of the Pope and the exercise of the Petrine Office is contemptible.
Actually, when Jesus had a chance to elevate Peter among the Apostles, he declined to do so.
And as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture anyone can cite to support Peter as number one is Matthew 16:19 - “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven” - and even then, only the phrase “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” is unique.
While I respect F.F. Bruce, I see no reason to believe him infallible. Indeed, the ‘key of David’ is held by Jesus Christ: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens. I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut.” - Rev 3
Since F.F. Bruce errs in applying that to Peter, he probably errs in his interpretation. John Gill makes more sense, noting (importantly) what the Kingdom of Heaven is:
“By the kingdom of heaven is meant the Gospel, which comes from heaven, declares the king Messiah to be come, speaks of things concerning his kingdom, is the means of setting it up, and enlarging it, displays the riches of his grace, and gives an account of the kingdom of heaven, and of persons’ right unto it, and meetness for it. [use a concordance to see how kingdom of heaven is used in the Gospels - Mr R] “The keys” of it are abilities to open and explain the Gospel truths, and a mission and commission from Christ to make use of them; and being said to be given to Peter particularly, denotes his after qualifications, commission, work, and usefulness in opening the door of faith, or preaching the Gospel first to the Jews, (Acts 2:1-47) and then to the Gentiles, (Acts 10:1-48) (15:7,14) and who was the first that made use of the keys of evangelical knowledge with respect to both, after he, with the rest of the apostles, had received an enlarged commission to preach the Gospel to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Otherwise these keys belonged to them all alike; for to the same persons the keys, and the use of them, appertained, on whom the power of binding and loosing was bestowed; and this latter all the disciples had, as is manifest from (Matthew 18:18) wherefore this does not serve to establish the primacy and power of Peter over the rest of the apostles; nor do keys design any lordly domination or authority; nor did Christ allow of any such among his apostles; nor is it his will that the ministers of his word should lord it over his heritage: he only is king of saints, and head of his church; he has the key of David [Rev 3:7], with which he opens, and no man shuts, and shuts, and no man opens; and this he keeps in his own hand, and gives it to none. Peter is not the door-keeper of heaven to let in, nor keep out, whom he pleases; nor has his pretended successor the keys of hell and death; these also are only in Christ’s hands...the Scribes and Pharisees, who would neither embrace it, or enter into the kingdom of God themselves, nor suffer others that were going to enter into it; and through their taking away the key of knowledge, or the right interpretation of the word of God; and through a judicial blindness, which that nation in general was given up to: and this was shut up to the Gentiles through the natural darkness that was spread over them, and through want of a divine revelation, and persons sent of God to instruct them: but now Christ was about, and in a little time he would (for these words, with what follow, are in the future tense) give his apostles both a commission and gifts, qualifying them to open the sealed book of the Gospel, and unlock the mysteries of it, both to Jews and Gentiles, especially the latter.
Keys are the ensigns of treasurers, and of stewards, and such the ministers of the Gospel are; they have the rich treasure of the word under their care, put into their earthen vessels to open and lay before others; and they are stewards of the mysteries and manifold grace of God, and of these things they have the keys. So that these words have nothing to do with church power and government in Peter, nor in the pope, nor in any other man, or set of men whatever; nor to be understood of church censures, excommunications, admissions, or exclusions of members: nor indeed are keys of any such similar use; they serve for locking and unlocking doors, and so for keeping out those that are without, and retaining those that are within, but not for the expulsion of any: but here they are used in a figurative sense, for the opening and explaining the truths of the Gospel, for which Peter had excellent gifts and abilities.”
Please remember - the disciples were told to “proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”
See also Luke 11:52: “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”
From Barnes: “The key of knowledge. A key is made to open a lock or door. By their false interpretation of the Old Testament they had taken away the true key or method of understanding it. They had hindered the people from understanding it aright.
“You endeavour to prevent the people also from understanding the Scriptures respecting the Messiah, and those who were coming to me ye hindered.”
If there is any sin of peculiar magnitude, it is that of keeping the people in ignorance; and few men are so guilty as they who by false instructions prevent them from coming to a knowledge of the truth, and embracing it as it is in Jesus.”
At the same time, there have been encouraging developments. There is now near unanimity in Bible scholarship generally, Protestant as well as Catholic, that the rock on which Jesus builds his church is neither Peter’s confession, nor the faith of Peter’s confession, nor the truth that Peter confesses about Christ, nor Christ himself, but Peter himself. ***
What many people miss is that Jesus was a master verbal craftsman. He actually says both. Petros / petra. Jesus is the big rock, Peter is the little one. Jesus is the King, Peter is the steward. Jesus is Master, Peter is the servant.
You are doing the same thing the author did. Speculating on the significance of Peters name change with no scripture to back up your conclusions. If Jesus wanted Peter to be His emissary we wouldn't have to speculate, He would be clear. He is not the purveyor of deception or innuendo, Satan, but the purveyor of truth.
Multiple times He tells us His Father will send the Spirit to guide us when He leaves the earth. There is no need for speculation from the scripture I provided from Acts that He kept that promise. This is the first mention of Peter after the indwelling of the Spirit at Pentecost. The lesson we should learn is that Peter was not in charge of anything other than getting self out of the way and let the Spirit lead him.
***Your king might be away but mine is with me always through His Spirit. I have no need for a steward. Nor do you. BVB***
Well, I look at it this way: if Jesus wills it, who am I to argue?
All I ask is for one scripture where Jesus plainly wills Peter to be His steward. Do that my friend and I will help you spread it to the world.
Thanks, BVB
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