Posted on 09/21/2009 10:14:12 AM PDT by NYer
It is CHRIST who crushes the head, not Mary
Amen! It's not the first time the RCC has usurped the role of Savior by giving it to Mary.
lol. Mr. Roger's view is backed up by Scripture. Nothing else is required to know the truth. Where the church fathers deviate from Scripture, they err. You, too.
Alex, I think we've misplaced 10,000 denominations.
I miss them already.
GASP!
And this is the kind of stuff they swallow without batting an eye.
But what's worse is they then pass this stuff on in public and pretend there is some validity to it...
And unsuspecting people get sucked in and are taught from the get-go that only the Catholic church can decipher what the Bible teaches...
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I agree, for the most part, with your interpretation as given.
By His grace through simple faith alone in Christ alone, we are all members of His Bride. His forgiveness occurs when we face Him (not any other) and we directly confess our sins to Him and no other.
His fellowship with each believer is re-established all by Him, not by our work, but if we focus on anything other than through faith in Him, we fall back out of fellowship, no longer being able to be sanctified until we return to Him first and not any other thing or group or person.
A lot of churches are adopting all the satanic beliefs of the world. Many churches have female pastors and teach that homosexuality is OK. Many churches teach evolution too.
There is a much higher set of workings of the Church, than a simple manmade institution.
There is wonderful allegory and types set forth in Scripture and eschatology to explain this. So as not to convolute Scripture with Greek philosophy introduced by Origen, let’s return to His Word and Him speak to the believer in fellowship with Him.
First we face Him (repent), and confess our known and unknown sins, by 1stJohn 1:9 we have assurance He has now forgiven us all sin and by continually thinking through faith in Him in everything we read and think, we remain in fellowship, in a position where God the Holy Spirit may appropriately perform His good work in us of faith.
In John 3:27-31, we read where a man cannot receive anything except it be given from heaven, then the comparison of the bridegroom and the bride.
If the Church is the Bride of Christ, the Bride has been selected by the Father for the Bridegroom, the Son.
While He is away preparing a house for the Bride, we are to remain faithful to the one prepared for us. The object of our faith is our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, not a substitute intermediary. The Father will determine the time of the wedding.
Can you show me where Jesus developed the system of succession for the leadership of the church?
and guided it, basically without interference, for 1500 years.
So Jesus did not have a hand in guiding the church for the first 1500 years, it developed its own theology without the influence and presence of Christ?
I suppose when those 10,000 denominations were thrown out, 242 Catholic denominations accidentally fell into the trashcan with them.
The point you;re missing in all of this is refusal to understand all of Scriptures are based upon nuptials. Ie;God calls Israel his spouse etc...and Mary being called women is typed back to Eve
Here is a good explanation......
http://www.archden.org/tribunal/documents/sacrament_of_marriage.htm
Excerpts
Scriptural Understanding
Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of “the wedding-feast of the Lamb.” Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its “mystery,” its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal “in the Lord” in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.[5]
Marriage in Old and New Testaments
All of Sacred Scripture, from its beginning to its final verses, can be seen as a wedding feast. The first covenant God established with man was in the context of marriage. The last verses of Scripture end with an invitation to the wedding feast: “The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’”[6] This marital covenant illustrates God’s desire and plan to bring us into communion with Him. All of salvation history shows God’s unfathomable love and mercy to reconcile us to Himself and to lead us into his covenantal family through the sacrament of Baptism.
In his 1960s audio series “Life is Worth Living,” Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen brilliantly shows us how God expresses His relationship with man in terms of nuptials throughout the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God continually calls Himself the “bridegroom” with the Chosen People of Israel His “bride.” This is essential in understanding Christ’s relationship to mankind when He comes.
“In the due course of time, God becomes man—the Bridegroom becomes man. Did Our Lord ever call Himself the Bridegroom? Yes, He did. And He did it in such a very natural way that the people were not at all astounded whey they heard Him, because they knew the background of God being related to their people as the Bridegroom. One of the occasions which Our Blessed Lord spoke of Himself that way was when a question was hurled at Him as to why He and His disciples did not fast, whereas the disciples of John the Baptist did fast. The answer of Our Lord was: “Can you expect the men of the Bridegroom’s company to go fasting when the Bridegroom is still with them?”[7] Then He went on to say that the Bridegroom will be taken away. John the Baptist called Himself the friend of the Bridegroom. In other words, a kind of “best man.”[8]
At most weddings we go to, we hear the reading of the marriage feast of Cana, where Christ performs his first public miracle. Archbishop Sheen says the timing of this was no accident.
“…There’s a beautiful mystery hidden somewhere in the marriage feast of Cana. Our Lord began His public life by assisting at that marriage feast, typifying his relationship with His Church would be exactly the relationship unfolded in the Old Testament, and when the old Kahal (chosen people) of Israel became the new Kahal, or the Church, or the New Israel, through Redemption and Pentecost, we had the continuation of the symbolism. Eve was the continuation of the body of man, bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.[9] What is the Church? The Church in the New Testament is described as the New Eve because [of] the continuation of the New Adam, Christ. Everywhere there is the idea of espousal, body, oneness, and we must get first things first. Remember, that the union of Our Lord and the Church is not like a human marriage; rather, a human marriage is like the union of Our Lord and the Church. When, therefore, the bride and groom stand at the altar and we read to them the marriage ceremony, we are informing them: “You, the bridegroom, stand for Christ. And you, the bride, stand for the Church.” That is the mysterious grace that is conferred upon you. How beautiful marriage becomes!”
Genesis
In the Book of Genesis we see that marriage is a union brought about by God. Of all the things created by God, the only thing which was not good was the solitude of man. God, therefore, created woman from the side of Adam, who would serve as his helpmate: “Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”[10] God created man and woman, therefore, for companionship. The differences we find in man and woman illustrate that the reality of a helpmate does not mean inferiority, but rather complementarity. Marriage is not just a contract, but rather a union that has been made by God and a union that endures until death. Soon, we will see how the natural order of marriage is elevated to the supernatural by the coming of Christ, Who makes marriage a sacrament.
“In the beginning,” we see how the first marriage was seriously ruptured by the introduction of sin and its transmission throughout every generation until the present. The Book of Genesis illustrates that the original justice which existed between man and woman—that they lived in a perfect right relation with each other, with God, and with creation—has been destroyed by Original Sin. The consequences of the sin of our first parents are described by God Himself when He says:
To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule it over you.” And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust and to dust you shall return.”[11]
The Original Sin of Adam and Eve shattered the integrity and harmony of all relationships. This was to be transmitted to their offspring. The marital relationship between Adam and Eve becomes a struggle, as there now exists a disorder of the domination of man over woman. This misguided mentality has survived to the present day and in many cases is accepted as what God has always intended. The Book of Genesis clearly points to the contrary. The domination of man over woman is an injustice, a disorder, which was never intended by God “in the beginning.” This does not remove the fact that God’s design for man and woman involves a differentiation in function within their relationship. After Original Sin, however, the disordered relationship between husband and wife was in need of redemption.
St. Paul
This relationship becomes elevated, redeemed and finds its true meaning in Jesus Christ and His love for the Church. This is precisely what St. Paul had in mind when he wrote to the Christians of Ephesus:
Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one.” This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church; however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.[12]
This text is also a popular selection read at wedding liturgies, and it is often misunderstood. As Archbishop Sheen beautifully explains: “Very often when women read that passage of Scripture, they do not like it. But, they should read what follows, that man is the head of a woman in exactly the same way that Christ is the Head of the Church. Now, how was Our Lord the Head of the Church, the Head of His Bride? Well, He was the Head by dying and sacrificing Himself and pouring out His blood! The Headship was based upon self-forgetfulness for the sake of the Beloved. Now, how is the wife related to the husband? Well, she is related to the husband in the same way the Church is related to Our Blessed Lord. And if the husband is to sacrifice himself for the wife, so, too, the wife, like the Church, is to be related to her husband just as the Church to Our Lord through love, service, devotion, and striving for perfection.”
An Unbreakable bond
The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides a profound understanding of what Our Lord stated in respect to the permanence of marriage (found especially in Matthew 19:3-9): “…Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” Interpreting Christ’s reference to “the beginning” (Genesis 2:24), the Church states:
Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: “It is not good for man to be alone.” The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh.”[13]
With all due respect ,dear sister, Scripture is something that has to be interpreted and without an authority and historical interpretations there is no way to tell who is in error without consistency of interpretations through the ages.
Both you and MR R don't agree on all scripture interpretations,thus you follow your own mind as the authority and decide for yourself who is in error
This is called the church of self!
I support marriage, but the idea that Jesus married Mary on the cross and his blood became semen making her the mother of the church is as disgusting as it is unbiblical.
And the idea that all scripture is based on nuptials is equally bizarre.
“Scripture is something that has to be interpreted and without an authority and historical interpretations there is no way to tell who is in error...”
“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” - Jesus
Dr. Eckleburg & I are to be led by the Holy Spirit. Being led implies we have not arrived, which is why neither of us claims to posses “all the truth” - but Jesus promises the Holy Spirit will be our guide.
Of course, Jesus COULD have said, “Peter, my Vicar, through the infallible Church, will give you all truth” - but Jesus didn’t say that, did he?
If you follow Christ, you will seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you seek the truth elsewhere...well, you are not looking where Jesus said to look.
“”I support marriage, but the idea that Jesus married Mary on the cross and his blood became semen making her the mother of the church is as disgusting as it is unbiblical.””
You have no authority(other than your own mind that replaces the true Church) to say what’s Biblical or not and no history to support your modernists viewpoints.
All that matters in Blessed Augustine’s explanation is it shows the Church was born at the Crucifixion of Our Lord where Mary was united in the sacrifice of Christ that only a Mother could be. This is why Mary is also a “type” of the Church and mother of the Church with Christ as the head of the Church.This is something a pure mind of virtue would understand
Blessed John Paul ll explains this ,...
On Calvary, Mary united herself to the sacrifice of her Son and made her own maternal contribution to the work of salvation, which took the form of labour pains, the birth of the new humanity.
In addressing the words “Woman, behold your son” to Mary, the Crucified One proclaims her motherhood not only in relation to the Apostle John but also to every disciple. The Evangelist himself, by saying that Jesus had to die “to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad” (Jn 11:52), indicates the Church’s birth as the fruit of the redemptive sacrifice with which Mary is maternally associated.
The Evangelist St Luke mentions the presence of Jesus’ Mother in the first community of Jerusalem (Acts 1:14). In this way he stresses Mary’s maternal role in the newborn Church, comparing it to her role in the Redeemer’s birth. The maternal dimension thus becomes a fundamental element of Mary’s relationship with the new People of the redeemed.
4. Following Sacred Scripture, patristic teaching recognizes Mary’s motherhood in the work of Christ and therefore in that of the Church, although in terms which are not always explicit.
According to St Irenaeus, Mary “became a cause of salvation for the whole human race” (Haer. 3, 22, 4; PG 7, 959), and the pure womb of the Virgin “regenerates men in God” (Haer. 4, 33, 11; PG 7, 1080). This is re-echoed by St Ambrose, who says: “A Virgin has begotten the salvation of the world, a Virgin has given life to all things” (Ep. 63, 33; PL 16, 1198), and by other Fathers who call Mary “Mother of salvation” (Severian of Gabala, Or. 6 in mundi creationem, 10, PG 54, 4; Faustus of Riez, Max. Bibl. Patrum, VI. 620-621).
In the Middle Ages, St Anselm addressed Mary in this way: “You are the mother of justification and of the justified, the Mother of reconciliation and of the reconciled, the mother of salvation and of the saved” (Or. 52, 8; PL 158, 957), while other authors attribute to her the titles “Mother of grace” and “Mother of life”
The title “Mother of the Church” thus reflects the deep conviction of the Christian faithful, who see in Mary not only the mother of the person of Christ, but also of the faithful. She who is recognized as mother of salvation, life and grace, mother of the saved and mother of the living, is rightly proclaimed Mother of the Church.
“”And the idea that all scripture is based on nuptials is equally bizarre.””
You saying so does not square with God’s covenants to Israel and the Church etc..
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Acts 1:13-14: “When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
Pope John Paul 2: “The Evangelist St Luke mentions the presence of Jesus’ Mother in the first community of Jerusalem (Acts 1:14). In this way he stresses Mary’s maternal role in the newborn Church, comparing it to her role in the Redeemer’s birth. The maternal dimension thus becomes a fundamental element of Mary’s relationship with the new People of the redeemed.”
Mr Rogers: “Pope John Paul 2 lied about what is found in Acts 1:14! Luke does NOT ‘stress Mary’s maternal role in the newborn Church, comparing it to her role in the Redeemer’s birth.’”
Lying about God’s Word ill becomes any man - much more so the Pope!
Accordingly, there is no better interpreter than God the Holy Spirit, indwelling the believer and while in fellowship with Him, being allowed to communicate the Word of God to the believer's spirit, as the believer thinks of the Word in his mind, communicated by his pastor-teacher
support marriage, but the idea that Jesus married Mary on the cross and his blood became semen making her the mother of the church is as disgusting as it is unbiblical.
where on earth did you come up with that nonsense
See posts 696 & 692 & 671, particularly the quote of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen:
"“From the cross our Lord looks down to his Blessed Mother and St. John, and he develops this new relationship in the kingdom of heaven. Now we've always thought, and rightly so, of Christ the Son on the cross and the mother beneath him. But that's not the complete picture. That's not the deep understanding. Who is our Lord on the cross? He's the new Adam. Where's the new Eve? At the foot of the cross. ...How did the old humanity begin? With the nuptials. How will the new humanity begin? With the nuptials. If Eve became the mother of the living in the natural order, is not this woman at the foot of the cross to become another mother? And so the bridegroom looks down at the bride. He looks at his beloved. Christ looks at his church. There is here the birth of the church. As St. Augustine puts it, and here I am quoting him verbatim, “The heavenly bridegroom left the heavenly chambers, with the presage of the nuptials before him. He came to the marriage bed of the cross, a bed not of pleasure, but of pain, united himself with the woman, and consummated the union forever.” As it were, the blood and water that came from the side of Christ was the spiritual seminal fluid. And so from this nuptials “Woman, there's your son”: the beginning of the church.”
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