How to testify

2 Sam. 12 twice references the most common word for women in the OT (translated both as "women" and as "wives") -- and even is applied to a "concubine" who was raped and murdered in the book of Judges.

OK, David had many wives true or false... True.
Nathan said God had Given David Women, which was translated as wives which makes sense to everyone else in the world, but you.
So is it your assertion here that Nathan is saying that God gave David many one night stands, Rapings or just women friends? What exactly are you saying this quote means then?

This should be good, chuckle.

Oh wait, it gets better, Saul was polygamous (actually it should by Polygynous, but I digress) Saul had many wives. These wives were sometimes, maybe even Often the daughters of foreign nations, the marriages part of a peace deal with the Israelite nation. When David became king, he had to take them to wife in order to keep the peace treaties. Not very nice by today's thinking, but that was how it was. So when David became king, he inherited many wives as part of the office, Nathan said God gave him many women, I'd still like to know exactly what you interpret that to mean.

What's funny in watching Mormons react to this verse is that they'll almost swear up one side & down the other that Joseph Smith didn't consummate most of his unions but David, who simply inherited these concubines -- these slave girls -- did. (Boy, how do you Mormons know all these intimate details, DU? 'Personal revelation?') What we are going on is Genetic studies of all who claimed to be Joseph's descendants, and that none of the women ever said he did. We know he was fertile, we know these women were fertile in that many who remarried after his death had children, but there are no genetic descendants that can be found. ergo, since there was no pill back then, and no evidence of sex we can conclude that there wasn't any sex.

Thankfully, the other verse DU included so that this whole passage can be taken in proper context

Thanks, nice of you to notice. if only it was not followed closely by this:

(This is where you get typical Mormon duplicity and outright deception...they'll wrestle verses out of context as a prooftext, and then they'll not only feel no shame in doing so, but try to justify their actions)

LOL! I give the whole thing in context, you even admit it, then rip me for interpreting it as I believe it should be "shamelessly" LOL!
So are you saying you never interpret scriptures in a way that others disagree with? "This is for posterity, so be honest..." -- Princess Bride

Notice, TN, DU didn't bother to reference 2 Sam. 16:21-22 as the answer to this fulfilled prophesy

Because... I wasn't going there with the scripture. I guess I have to use the scriptures only for approved points now?

First of all, v. 21 clearly shows that David's only role for these slave girls was to "keep the house" (hope that doesn't burst any lurid harem ideas you were attaching to your "biblical polygamy," DU).

I don't think they were just house slaves, you are perfectly entitled to your (incorrect) opinions.

So tell us, DU, is having concubines your idea of "biblical polygamy?" Really?

Actually yes, and no, it proves the concept if done with God's approval, but I believe full wives prove it better, which these women who were treaty wives had to be, or the treaty would have been broken.

So Joseph Smith starting to sleep with Fanny Alger in 1831 while she was his servant girl is your idea of "biblical polygamy?"

So you have proof of Joseph having extra marital sex? Trot it on out there, if you have nothing more than a rumor, then can it, you have nothing but slander against a man long dead.

And you think any man who had an ancient slave girl could just sleep with her and call it good? ("marriage?")

You really need to red Deuteronomy 22:13-30, which contains the rules of marriage in the old testament, Verses 28-29 follow:

28 ¶ If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Now, I think this is a minimum, we men can do a lot better, IT's not a guideline for gentlemanly behavior, but it's in the Bible, so it is Biblical.

Tell us, DU, do you think any concubine had the right to say "no" either to a "marriage" proposal or slave-rape or slave-seduction?

Slaves had no right to say no, concubines were basically second class wives whose children had no inheritance rights, but they had to agree to enter into the marriage, and could have said no. Why do I get the feeling you are not being logical about this?

And yet you seriously introduce concubinage as automatically included within the holy institution of marriage? Really?

It's Biblical. I didn't say I had any desire to practice it. I love my wife, she is all I desire.

(Well if your answers to these questions are "yes" is that the Mormon male patriarchical heritage coming out of your lips?)

My answers to your questions have nothing to do wit "Mormonism's beliefs, I am answering as a Biblical scholar, It's in there.

I find it interesting that antis often will get on this emotional trip and try to bend the scripture to their will, not their will to the scripture. The bible records both plural marriages and Concubinage by men that God calls righteous. The Bible and specifically Jesus condemns Divorce (save for the cause of fornication) yet in our culture, divorce and remarriage is common and accepted. To me this form of serial polygamy is more offensive to God than parallel marriages in that with Biblical polygamy, Families stay intact, children have the same father and mother they always did. With serial polygamy you have kids taking the brunt of the emotional damage, and I cannot but imagine that God is not pleased by it.

Now before you go and try to make holy war on Mormons for my logic, remember that I am an autistic person. I tend to be logical and impersonal, my statements on this are my own, I am not aware of the church having an official stance on "serial Polygamy" as I made the term up myself. I ask you logically, which is better, to keep fathers and children together, to keep women living in the house they are accustomed to, being supported by the same means they always have been in their marriage, and adding to the family, or completely ripping a family apart, having children spend six months with each parent and differing sets of friends, schools, rules. Having children as both the buffer, and the innocent party to be victimized by both sides of a war that will last until the scarred child is 18 and possibly beyond? I say no, God would rather that polygamy was legal and that those who wished to practice it were allowed to do so in peace. At the same time, I have no patience for a man who would abuse his wife either physically (for he is a coward) or for women who treat men with the contempt of feminism.

Before any of you ask, I am a Male chauvinist pig, I worship the ground my wife walks upon and supply her every need upon the pedestal she has chosen. She likes the view from the pedestal and loves me in spite of my faults. To those who would try to change me and my wife's relationship, I am a male chauvinist pig and my wife likes me that way, and I care far more about her opinion than any number of yours, so give up before you start and save your self the headache of trying to argue a point in a case you have no standing in.

GZ, as usual you have confused facts with your opinion.

All the points you bring up here are explained in my page, in the section titled "Questions about polygamy"

Rather than re-post the whole thing again, just click the link and follow the index to the answer of your choice.

And don't think we don't see through your attempt to pull out Biblical pro-polygamous OT passages out of de-contextualized hat -- all the while you ignore both the anti-polygamy verses in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Actually, I address all of that on my page.

Good point. We'd expect, DU, that you would have provided a few written upbraids of SLC HQ for failing to live out D&C 132 -- all the while commending the fLDS for not only living it out but the verses you claim elevate polygamy. However, IF polygamy is so blessed of the Lord, you should be embracing the FLDS, who are continuing in Smith’s revelation about the principle.

There is this little matter of obeying the law of the land, once we had taken the matter to the court of last resort and found no relief, our Articles of faith gave us no choice but to comply with the law of the land.

Did you see my direct quotes?
As far as a word not being present, there are others that have gone over this with you many times, so no need to repeat.
I am just going to get ready to take the train, you know another word not in the Bible, gee I hope its real.

svcw: Did you see my direct quotes?
As far as a word not being present, there are others that have gone over this with you many times, so no need to repeat.

Yes, I saw your quotations. they are not from the KJV, which my quotes were from. I use the KJV exclusively, I used to be more open minded, but then I had someone try to quote from a "Living Bible" or something that had Jesus calling his disciples "Dudes" that was just too much for me, and I decided that life is too short to try to compare all Bible's translations. so I stick with the KJV (King James Version) and the KJV has the word Godhead in it as I quoted, and linked to it.

svcw: I am just going to get ready to take the train, you know another word not in the Bible, gee I hope its real.

Are you saying a KJV of the Bible is not a real Bible? LOL! Good luck with that!

Go with God may he keep and protect you on your journey.

Cute but no cigar and thanks.

JFTR, when you start cutting out the scriptures people use in their posts and then "interpret them" you will get nothing but ridicule from me for you have only your words.

When have you offered anything but ridicule. But then again you have trouble coming to terms with mormon polytheism.

Cute but no cigar and thanks.

LOL!

Thanks, but as a Mormons, not interested in the cigar either.

For those not aware of what this little tempest in a teapot is about, I quoted Acts 17:28-29 Where the Godhead is mentioned in the KJV Bible, and was "called on it not being in some other version of the Bible.

The KJV Acts 17:28-29

28 For in him we alive, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

So there it is, the KJV uses the word, he's saying I made it up because he uses some other translation...

They are not polytheist, they are monocommitteeist...

LOL...great idea.

DU: JFTR, when you start cutting out the scriptures people use in their posts and then "interpret them" you will get nothing but ridicule from me for you have only your words.

DU: When have you offered anything but ridicule.

When faced with the willful ignorance often displayed in your posts, I am faced with either humor or despair. I choose humor.

GZ: But then again you have trouble coming to terms with mormon polytheism.

See, there you go again, do you even realize how dumb it looks for you to continually Beg the question?

To lurkers, Begging the question is when you assume the answer you want is correct when asking the question, the classic example being "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Godzilla instead says "you have trouble coming to terms with mormon polytheism" Thus you assume that polytheism exists in Mormonism which is not true. Tactics like this have been used since antiquity, and have been ridiculed by people of intellect since then.

Fallacy Files is a web site dedicated to documenting illegitimate arguments like these.

The reason I bring up fallacies is people usually resort to illegitimate arguments like this when they have nothing else, but still feel strongly about an issue.

Godzilla, I recognize that you feel strongly that the LDS church is wrong, however, that is not a logical argument.

Godzilla, I sincerely wish you to have a nice day, may your soul come closer to God, until you not only call him friend, but until he calls you friend also as he did Abraham.

GZ, as usual you have confused facts with your opinion.

I see you are unable to cite the relevant facts from my post. Then again, obfuscation is the norm for morg apologists. Lets review the facts shall we.

Marriage - Joseph to Emma Hale, 18 Jan 1827

Book of Mormon published "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; for I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:27-30). 1830

Illinois Law Sec 121 - Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. February 12th, 1833

Book of Commandments (the predecessor of the Doctrine & Covenants) which contained the following statement: "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the CRIME of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (Section C1, 251). 1833

Marriage - Joseph to Fanny Alger, age 16, Apr 1833

Doctrine and Covenants section 101, Verse 4 (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy: "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247). Note: this section in the Doctrine and Covenants was in every single edition until 1876, when the Doctrine and Covenants first included Section 132 justifying plural marriage)

Marriage - Joseph to Lucinda Pendleton Morgan, age 37, Jun 1838

Elder's Journal ("Edited by Joseph Smith") Joseph Smith answered some questions including the following:
"Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?
"Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practiced among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion.
"We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children."- (Elder's Journal, July 1838, Vol 1, No. 3, p 43; reprinted in History of the Church Vol 3, p 38)

"We have heard that it is reported by some, that some of us should have said, that we not only dedicated our property, but our families also to the Lord; and Satan, taking advantage of this, has perverted it into licentiousness, such as a community of wives, which is an abomination in the sight of God." (History of the Church Vol 3, p 230, 16 Dec 1838)

Marriage - Joseph to Louisa Beaman, age 26, 05 Apr 1841

Marriage - Joseph to Mary Elizabeth Rollins) Jun 1841

Marriage - Joseph to Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs, age 20, already married 27 Oct 1841

Marriage - Joseph to Prescendia Lathrop Huntington, age 31, already married 11 Dec 1841

Marriage - Joseph to Desdemona Wadsworth Fullmer 1842

Articles of Faith "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." - 12th Article of Faith, written by the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Agnes Moulton Coolbrith, age 33, 06 Jan 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Mary Elizabeth Rollins, age 23, already married 17 Jan 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Sylvia Sessions, age 23, already married 08 Feb 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Nancy Marinda Hyde, age 27, already married Apr 1842

Smith proposes secret plural marriage to 19 year-old Nancy Rigdon 10 Apr 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Elizabeth Davis, age 50, already married May 1842

Smith performs secret plural marriage for Brigham Young 14 Jun 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Eliza R. Snow, age 38 29 Jun 1842

Smith attempts to seduce wife of Orson Pratt leads to suicide attempt by Orson 15 Jul 1842

Revelation - Polygamy (never canonized or officially published) 27 Jul 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Sarah Ann Whitney, age 17, 27 Jul 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Martha McBride Aug 1842

Marriage - Joseph to Ruth Vose Sayers, age 33, already married Aug 1842

Smith sends 380 Elders across the country to deny allegations of his polygamy 29 Aug 1842

Smith publishes denouncement of polygamy - 01 Sep 1842 "All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."

Smith republishes denial of polygamy 01 Oct 1842

Smith condemns coveting other men's wives 15 Oct 1842 (by this time he was married to at least 6 women who had another husband)

Smith tells temple workers to stop gossiping about polygamy 21 Feb 1843

Joseph's speech in front of the Ladies' Relief Society - "There is a great noise in the city...and many are saying there cannot be so much smoke without some fire. Well, be it so. If the stories about Joe Smith are true, then the stories of John C. Bennett are true about the ladies of Nauvoo; and he says that the Ladies' Relief Society are all organized of those who are to be the wives of Joseph Smith. Ladies, you know whether this is true or not." (At least 12 of Smith's plural wives were in attendance) Feb 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Emily Dow Partridge, age 19, 04 Mar 1843

Smith spends honeymoon night with secret bride Emily Partridge 05 Mar 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Eliza M. Partridge, age 22, 08 Mar 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Flora Ann Woodworth, age 16, Apr 1843

Benjamin Johnson believes Smith's angel-with-a-sword testimony, gives him sister as secret wife 02 Apr 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Almera Woodward Johnson, age 30 03 Apr 1843

Smith challenges members to accuse him directly of polygamy or keep quiet 06 Apr 1843 "President Joseph then asked the conference if they were satisfied with the First Presidency, so far as he was concerned, as an individual, to preside over the whole church; or would they have another? If, said he, I have done any thing that ought to injure my character, reputation, or standing; or have dishonored our religion by any means in the sight of men, or angels, or in the sight of men and women, I am sorry for it, and if you will forgive me, I will endeavor to do so no more. I do not know that I have done anything of the kind; but if I have, come forward and tell me of it. If any one has any objection to me, I want you to come boldly and frankly, and tell of it; and if not, ever after hold your peace."

Marriage - Joseph to Olive Grey Frost, age 27 12 Apr 1843

Smith secretly marries William Clayton to his wife's sister 27 Apr 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Helen Mar Kimball, age 14, May 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Lucy Walker, age 17, 01 May 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Maria Lawrence, age 19, 11 May 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Sarah Lawrence, age 17, 11 May 1843 (Note, sister of Maria)

Hyrum Smith tells congregation only Devil would give plural wife revelation 14 May 1843

Emma discovers Smith in bedroom with Eliza Partridge 22 May 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Hanna Ellis, age 29, Jun 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Elvira Anie Cowles, age 29, 01 Jun 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Rhoda Richards, age 58, 12 Jun 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Desdemona Fullmer, age 32, Jul 1843

Revelation - D&C 132 Plural Marriage secret commandment, dictated by Smith 12 Jul 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Nancy Maria Winchester, age 15, 28 Jul 1843

Hyrum Smith presents the revelation on plural marriage to the Nauvoo Stake High Council 12 Aug 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Malissa Lott, age 19, 20 Sep 1843

Smith writes in diary that plurality of wives is forbidden 05 Oct 1843

Smith republishes condemnation of adultery 01 Nov 1843

Marriage - Joseph to Fanny Young Murray, age 56, already married 02 Nov 1843

Suit filed against Smith for adultery with foster daughter 23 May 184. William Law files a formal complaint with the Hancock County circuit court charging Smith was living "in an open state of adultery" with Maria Lawrence, Smith's foster daughter and polygamous wife. Maria Lawrence was a teenaged orphan who was living in the Smith household. In fact, Smith had secretly married both Maria, age 19 and her sister Sarah, age 17 on 11 May 1843 and was serving as executor of their $8,000 estate.

Smith denies polygamy, boasts he has done more than Jesus Christ 26 May 1844 "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this...I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411)

Nauvoo Expositor publishes references to Smith's polygamy and ordination as King on Earth 07 Jun 1844

Smith as mayor of Nauvoo orders destruction of Nauvoo Expositor press 10 Jun 1844

Smith burns polygamy revelation, flees Nauvoo but then returns 23 Jun 1844. Joseph and Emma Smith burn the original manuscript of the 1843 polygamy revelation, presumably on this evening. William Clayton preserves a copy, which is later canonized as Section 132 of the D&C. Note, Sect 132 wasn't even canonized by this time

It isn't rocket science to see that
1. Polygamy was illegal by both State law and mormon canon
2. Smith repeatly lied about being polygamous.
3. Polygamy was NEVER in the U.S. or in Utah. All the married Mormons who emigrated to Utah in 1847 had been married under the civil laws of their respective states; each one of those states had laws against bigamy, thus making monogamy the "common law." (To use an analogy, you get your drivers' license from your state, but it is recognized as being legal in all the states. Marriage licenses are similar.)
4. Young himself in 1877 admitted that his own "plural marriages" were not legal marriages, that means that no other Mormon "plural marriage" at any time was a legal marriage either.

Godzilla instead says "you have trouble coming to terms with mormon polytheism" Thus you assume that polytheism exists in Mormonism which is not true. Tactics like this have been used since antiquity, and have been ridiculed by people of intellect since then.

If the premisses of an instance of Begging the Question happen to be true, then the argument is sound. Does mormonism believe in a polytheistic plurality of gods - yes.

Polytheism - The worship of or belief in more than one god.

Does mormonism believe and teach that there is more than one god?
Book of Abraham 4:1-5 references gods in the plural
Joseph Smith was clear in his teachings that there are more than one god, “you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you…”.
Brigham Young taught: “How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity." - note again, plurality of gods

And DU, you have even tried to cite (albet out of context) bible passages to say that the Bible teaches polytheism to justify mormon doctrines on the same. Your denial of mormon polytheism is understandable because it would be placed in the same class as the polytheists condemned in the Bible. Mormons want to sound like "Christian", so they couch their terms in those terms - yet utilize alternative definitions to cover themselves.

Some closing comments:

“I wish to declare I have always an in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods.” - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, p. 306
“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, pp. 307, 308
“Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligencies [sic] that dwell in eternity.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 160, September 2, 1860
"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . . "In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through---Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfections of the Gods."- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, June 16, 1844

Thus you assume that polytheism exists in Mormonism which is not true. Tactics like this have been used since antiquity, and have been ridiculed by people of intellect since then.

DU, I am sure you have a list of these intellects at hand, for I would certainly like to know who they are and it would be of great benefit to the 'lurkers' you love to address.

That plural ‘gods’ really is hard to escape. Not that they don't try.

Lurkers, please note the grammar in the very words of the LDS doctrine, and note how it is “worked around’ at will.

Would that we all could be so imprecise and able to constantly ignore the very words we supposedly hold scared.

Lurkers, please note the grammar in the very words of the LDS doctrine, and note how it is “worked around’ at will.

Where is the nailing jello pic?

Do Mormons believe that there is one, eternal, never-created, all-creating God?

Do Mormons believe that you can earn your own planet to be God over?

The CROSS (fyi) is a symbol of death,...

No, it's not. It's a symbol of victory, and the fulfillment of Genesis 15.