Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
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Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.
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In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."
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As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...
(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...
JFTR, your scripture citation does not support your assertion. It points to those 'gods' made by hand - idols - which you have asserted are 'real' gods. Book of Abraham 4:3 claims that very point that I made. So please, explain how idols are true gods of mormonism.
The reason why you've been asked that question is the Bible itself says there's "another Jesus":
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted... (2 Cor. 11:4)
I think we both could agree that there's a point where someone out there misdescribing Jesus is no longer identifying Jesus of Nazareth. (And that's the point the apostle Paul was making)
Now, that's down right funny.
Graybeard58 - charter member, Flying Inmans.
2 Sam. 12 twice references the most common word for women in the OT (translated both as "women" and as "wives") -- and even is applied to a "concubine" who was raped and murdered in the book of Judges.
Reference #1:: And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
All this verse says is that Saul was a polygamist "thy MASTER's wives". Why were they given to David? (They came with the kingdom...the whole kit & kaboodle...thy master's house, thy master's wives, etc.)
What's funny in watching Mormons react to this verse is that they'll almost swear up one side & down the other that Joseph Smith didn't consummate most of his unions but David, who simply inherited these concubines -- these slave girls -- did. (Boy, how do you Mormons know all these intimate details, DU? 'Personal revelation?')
Thankfully, the other verse DU included so that this whole passage can be taken in proper context is v. 11: Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
Nathan is giving a prophesy here. Now when did this prophesy come true? (This is where you get typical Mormon duplicity and outright deception...they'll wrestle verses out of context as a prooftext, and then they'll not only feel no shame in doing so, but try to justify their actions).
Notice, TN, DU didn't bother to reference 2 Sam. 16:21-22 as the answer to this fulfilled prophesy -- Absalom, son of David: And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.
What does 2 Sam. 16:21-22 make clear?
First of all, v. 21 clearly shows that David's only role for these slave girls was to "keep the house" (hope that doesn't burst any lurid harem ideas you were attaching to your "biblical polygamy," DU).
#2, it makes it quite clear who the ID of these women were -- slave girls, servant girls, concubines. Even if Saul may have used them sexually (even that we don't know) -- we don't have proof David did.
So tell us, DU, is having concubines your idea of "biblical polygamy?" Really?
So Joseph Smith starting to sleep with Fanny Alger in 1831 while she was his servant girl is your idea of "biblical polygamy?"
And you think any man who had an ancient slave girl could just sleep with her and call it good? ("marriage?")
Tell us, DU, do you think any concubine had the right to say "no" either to a "marriage" proposal or slave-rape or slave-seduction?
And yet you seriously introduce concubinage as automatically included within the holy institution of marriage? Really?
(Well if your answers to these questions are "yes" is that the Mormon male patriarchical heritage coming out of your lips?)
MonkeyFace,
I quoted Jesus Christ, who warned there would
be False Christs. You said their was only one
Jesus. I didn’t comment at all. Your disagreement
of opinion seems to be with Christ, who has every
right to not only judge, but knows everything.
best,
ampu
What???
*sheesh*
I could never disagree with Jesus Christ! What a hare-brained statement you made.
Woohoo! We agree on something. Jesus shed his precious Blood in Gethsemene and on Golgotha's Hill. He is our Savior. He lives and loves us. Jesus Christ died for me. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love the Savior. I thank Heavenly Father for His Plan of Salvation. I love the Holy Ghost who ever lives to help us return to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ, the only Begotten of the Father. I am grateful for the sacrifices and sufferings of Joseph Smith Jr through whom the Savior restored the Gospel on earth.
“I could never disagree with Jesus Christ! What a hare-brained statement you made.
Well, you said there was only one Jesus,
and called other posters dumb for asking
you which Jesus you believed in (or something
similar).
I pointed out that Jesus himself said there
would be other false Jesus’ coming.
HE disagreed with what YOU wrote. No more,
no less.
By the way, so did the Apostles. There are
many false Christs. I consider it hair-brained
to disagree with Jesus Christ - not to point
out when things don’t agree with Christ.
AMPU
(May I suggest, Mr. Restorationist, that you "restore" your ping list, lest any have apostacized since your last "vision." I mean, you wouldn't want an incomplete creedal abomination or corrupt professing believer list, would you?)
This deserves expansion. Was it biblical for smith to wife Alger when the revelation and teaching of the church he founded emphatically stressed monogamy? When your own statement of faith claims to follow the laws of the land - yet Smith's marriage to Alger violated Illinois law. Is if biblical for smith to perjure himself by on the record stating that he was only married to one women when at that very moment he was married to at least 11. Was it biblical for him to order the destruction of the Nauvoo expositor when it exposed the practice of polygamy (even though it was still specifically banned in LDS law and canon)?
You have such wonderful opinions of what you think I said and feel, I’ll just let you take my place and the thread and convince everyone that I was saved by your assessment.
And be sure to put words in my mouth, too. That should just about make your opinions worthwhile.
Monkey Face,
HERE http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2344346/posts?page=156#156 is where you say there is only one
Jesus Christ.
No one put any words in your mouth, except you. And you can
read them at that link. That is your post.
Jesus Himself said there were many False Christs who would
come. You can read His words HERE: http://bible.cc/matthew/24-24.htm
Your statement and His cannot both be true.
I’m going with Jesus Christ on this one.
ampu
Argue with yourself. You are like a horse with the bit in his teeth...runaway...go for it. I’ve explained until I’m blue in the face, but you have bore-sighted a comment and that’s the one you’re going base everything else on.
Cool. Be my guest. Please yourself any way you want to. If you don’t understand me, you still won’t a year from now.
Exactly. DU, you know the rigorous anti-polygamous statements contained in the Book of Jacob, Book of Mormon. That was Mormon canon for 1831 and D&C 132 wasn't even in print for another 21 years -- and wasn't canonized for a while. How could Smith's lifestyle corrupt the Book of Jacob's precepts; and how could his open lying & covering up this lifestyle be deemed as anything but calling into question his character & integrity?
And don't think we don't see through your attempt to pull out Biblical pro-polygamous OT passages out of de-contextualized hat -- all the while you ignore both the anti-polygamy verses in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
No where in the OT is Hagar referred to as Abraham’s ‘wife’.
However, IF polygamy is so blessed of the Lord, you should be embracing the FLDS, who are continuing in Smith’s revelation about the principle.
Well, actually Sarai, the night of handing over Hagar, did reference her so...though it's debatable if "wife" is meant because the Hebrew word for "woman" is the exact same word.
Still, after the fact, Sarai/Sarah never again references Hagar that way.
Abram, after he slept with Hagar, still references Hagar as only a servant girl--NOT his wife.
Hagar herself, post-sleeping with Abram, doesn't identify herself to the Angel of the Lord as Abram's new "wife," but still IDs herself as her "mistress" (female version of the word "master")
The angel of the Lord appearing to Hagar in Gen. 16 -- who some say was the pre-incarnate Christ appearing -- also references Hagar post-sleeping with Abram as someone who belongs to Sarai -- hardly the way you'd expect an angel to talk if Hagar was Abram's "wife". This angel told Hagar to return to Sarai -- not to Abram.
Moses, when he recounted Hagar 5 chapters later, references her as a slave/servant girl. (Not as Abraham's wife)
The apostle Paul, in Gal 4:21 and following, does the same.
However, IF polygamy is so blessed of the Lord, you should be embracing the FLDS, who are continuing in Smith’s revelation about the principle.
Good point. We'd expect, DU, that you would have provided a few written upbraids of SLC HQ for failing to live out D&C 132 -- all the while commending the fLDS for not only living it out but the verses you claim elevate polygamy. However, IF polygamy is so blessed of the Lord, you should be embracing the FLDS, who are continuing in Smith’s revelation about the principle.
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