Posted on 09/20/2009 7:47:05 AM PDT by Colofornian
Bob Bennett has a challenge for those who reject The Book of Mormon as a fanciful work of fiction...In a new book, Leap of Faith: Confronting the Origins of The Book of Mormon, the lifelong Mormon and grandson of a church prophet, argues that the foundational book of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be dismissed so easily.
SNIP
...Terryl Givens, a Mormon and a professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond, notes that The Book of Mormon has not undergone much if any scrutiny by scholars outside the faith.
"The story of its coming forth is too fantastical for non-Mormons to overcome," he told Religion News Service.
SNIP
If the book is less likely to find its way into non-Mormon hands, it may turn out to be useful for the faithful, particularly those confused by The Book of Mormon...
Too few Mormons really understand their bedrock book, Bennett says, and many use it merely as a "theological version of Bartlett's," a source of quotes for church talks.
SNIP
Some church members have told Bennett they are uncomfortable to learn there are unresolved "problems" with The Book of Mormon.
For instance, he doesn't have an answer for why Moroni, the last author of the book and the angel who purportedly showed the plates to Smith, would use words about charity that are almost identical to those uttered by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians in the New Testament...
"They [his own critics] say, 'One of our own should not be pointing these things out in case the critics have missed them,' " Bennett says.
But Bennett says, to remain credible, he had to put even the unanswerable arguments into his book.
(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...
Thank you...
I’ve been wondering in more recent months just what percentage of ex-mormons left the faith because of a logical argument or the exposure of a falsehood in their scriptures.
After going through what I have with my own son of 17, I am thoroughly convinced that it is truly a spirit of deception that must be broken before any “reason” can begin to have any hope of persuasion.
It would be so helpful to me to hear from those who have left LDS as to what it was that turned them.
>>> We are all saved by the grace of God However we are also judged by our works, our words and our thoughts.
You mix salvation with judgment.
Salvation is the escape from the judgment you speak of.
Judgment itself comes in many forms, times, and purpose.
There are other judgments and accounts that are given that are NOT related to the eternal separation from God as a result of our sin. But again... they are not related to salvation.
I believe that before we concern ourselves with the rewards we might receive in heaven, we should be more concerned about whether or not our name is written in the lamb’s book of life...
and the bible says that if a man mixes his works with God’s Grace for justification, then his sins remain.
I’ll ping exmormons to you via Freepmail so you can converse with them.
>>> Compare the LDS church to other churches that are led by prophets to see if there is a difference.
Show me a single biblical prophet or author that used an instrument of witchcraft to divine God’s Word into writing as Joseph Smith did using those “Seer Stones”.
How about that difference?
We don’t even have to get to the 1st Book of Nephi before we are shown evidence that God did NOT commission the writing.
The rhetoric and circular logic, the jumping from belief to belief, as exampled on this very thread about grace and works and the LDS with yet again another “taking the side that fits at the time” presentation. At some point such activity finally hits home for some.
There are two basic LDS members that I have been able to deduce from all the rhetoric here. Those who believe and either can't or wont see the truth and those who have other motivations, who know it is all a fabrication but for whatever reason have to play along.
Oddly enough I find the latter to be the most “able” (if such is really possible)defenders and apologist, the ones who promote the most prolific and technically complicated arguments.
Makes me often wonder who they are trying to convince most, us or themselves...
>>> Makes me often wonder who they are trying to convince most, us or themselves...
I think you hit on it here... and I think it is both, and it clearly is related to pride and false security.
God says that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also... and if a man invests his entire life in what later occurs to him to be a false religion, then the pride of his folly is that much harder to swallow... and he will find it easier to brainwash himself into believing the lie than to humble himself in favor of the truth.
I am not misinformed about the life of Joseph Smith. I am familiar with the charges against him.
Fine - which testimony of his first vision should we believe?
How did Smith translate the bom?
Where are the bom cities here in the Americas?
So was Joseph Smith a Prophet of God and we should follow after him. Or was Joseph a false prophet and we should not follow after him. What does the Bible tell us. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Prophets produce true prophecies about that he could not know. Smith has a long list of false prophecies - the fruit of one who claims to be a prophet. It is not rocket science.
Of course the logic falls flat rather quickly since the Catholic and Muslim faiths are both growing and considerably larger than the slowly declining LDS.
Of course I realize I used logic and LDS in the same sentence...
>>> Smith has a long list of false prophecies -
Like his prophesy that his unborn son would finish translation of the plates at the age of 3...
And his son ended up dying at birth.
Both verifiable.
This book is simply the means for the Senator to preserve himself in office.
Penance for you then. . .
One among many, and it only takes one according to the Bible.
One would think God what have brought that up...
When I left Mormonism, I was in my mid twenties. I had been born and raised in a small Utah town that my forefathers had founded, and I was a sixth generation Mormon. Every single relationship I had whether it was friends, family, school teachers, community leaders, law enforcement - all were Mormon.
It was very difficult for me to leave. In fact when I finally discovered all the lies of Mormonism, I left silently. I gradually quit attending church which led the community to think that I was lost to sin. What had made me lose Mormonism however, was truth, not sin. There are many resources where your son will learn the truths behind the deception which calls itself The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Be there for him when he finds out he’s been hoodwinked.
Fear not Safrguns. The Lord has a plan and He will use even the evil of this world for His good purposes. Pray for your son and love him. It took me twenty years after the time I left Mormonism to finally hear the call of God into my life. The were long and painful and lonely years, but they taught me more than you could imagine.
Amen.
Perhaps you should try giving your son a task. Tell him there are some things you don’t understand about the Book of Mormon, and ask him to explain them to him.
Use an example. Say someone claimed to have found a lost volume of Chaucer’s “Canturbury Tales”. People immediatly spotted it as a forgery, because it described people eating tomatos, potatos, chocolate, vanilla, and pumpkins. Why the doubt? Because these are all western hemisphere plants. Prior to Columbus’ discovery of the Americas (1492) none of these plants existed in the easter hemisphere (the old world.) Since Chaurcer’s “Canturbury Tales” were written in the 1300s, he would have never have know of the existance of these plants.
The Book of Mormon says it is a history of a people that lived in the western hemisphere prior to 1492. It describes the existance of horses, elephants, cattle, cows, goats, barley, wheat, and silk. All of these are eastern hemisphere plants or animals. None of them existed in the western hemisphere prior to Columbus’ discovery of America (1492).
All of these plants and animals were common in America by 1800 though. Other than the highly educated, few living in America in the early 1800s realized these plants and animals were not native to America (heck, even today, I doubt 5% of Americans know that cattle, goats, barley, or wheat are not native to the western hemisphere.)
Ask him to explain to you why the Book of Mormon contains these plants and animals. Explain to him that, in your opinion, these are the kind of mistakes someone living in the early 1800s would be likely to make if they were making up a story about pre-columbian America. Highlight the verses and tag the pages in the BOM for him. Put it right in front of him, give it to him, so he is staring right at them. Give him time to go look it up, but ask him to give you a serious answer. Not just a “I feel it’s right” answer, but a serious answer backed up with logic. Give him a chance to defend Mormonism and his choice.
He won’t be able to. At least not with a logical answer. It only takes a crack to allow the light in. Perhaps this will be the crack needed to make him come to his senses.
>>> Perhaps you should try giving your son a task. Tell him there are some things you don’t understand about the Book of Mormon, and ask him to explain them to him.
Thank you for this, but he already admits ignorance to most of the doctrines and beliefs... admits he is not directly familiar with most of the BOM... and yet the other night he shoved it in my face and wanted ME to read it.
Its very difficult if not impossible to be logical (reasonable) with illogical behavior.
What he claims as the source of his faith or belief in it’s truthfulness is what he described as a “peace” and “confidence” he felt in his heart that he has not been able to attain anywhere else. It’s that belonging and identity thing someone else mentioned before. It’s a spiritual block.
Right now he is getting the half truths and the full love-bombing treatment... along with all of the un-earned attention and accolades that we wouldn’t give him unless he earned it.
Thanks for your input though... it is valid.
If he wants you to read it, then he must be open to having a dialog with you about it.
Try to approach it as he is helping you understand. Instead of attacking him (”How the heck could you believe in this?”) approach it as “help me understand this”. Maybe a willingness to help you will cause him to actually dig into it and try to answer you questions (and hopefully have a moment of clarity.)
Sounds like he is running on pure emotion at the moment.
Good luck.
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