The Attitude Behind the Act

Grace to you ^ | Not given | John MacArthur

[Mr Rogers]

The following sermon by John MacArthur is available free either in text or as audio at:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/2213

Since it runs 11 pages, I've heavily edited it to conserve space. If you have any questions about what he says, I recommend reading or listening to the full sermon!

The Attitude Behind the Act

Matthew 5:21

Tonight, I want I you to look with me at Mathew chapter five and we come to the section beginning in verse 21. This very important, very misunderstood often misrepresented and misinterpreted section of Scripture will be our occupation for many weeks to come. Because from verse 21 through verse 48 we have critical statements by our Lord as He interprets the Old Testament law...

Now most people evaluate their lives and the lives of other people on external appearance. I Samuel 16:7 says, "Man looketh on the outward appearance." Jesus said A John 17:24, "Judge not according to the appearance but righteous judgment." In II Cor. chapter 10 the apostle Paul said, "Do you look on things after the outward appearance? We dare not make ourselves of the number or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves." There are people who commend themselves on the basis of their outward appearance. There are people who are satisfied with how they behave externally. There are people who evaluate others on the basis of what they see, visibly, on terms of religious behavior.

Now this is rather typical of fallen man. He is basically satisfied with externals. A lady recently said to me in a conversation, she said - I'm very religious; I do many things for my religion. I'm very active. I'm a good person doing good deeds for people especially people from other countries. And she went on to try and convince me that God was pleased with what she was doing, But I Samuel 16:7 says, "Man looks at the outward appearance and God looks upon the heart." God is not so concerned with the outside as He is with the inside. And the outside is only validated insofar as it is representative of what is on the inside. And that is frankly the basis of the text that lies before us. In Matthew chapter 5 verses 21 to 48 as our Lord gives standards for living in His kingdom, as He redefines and reemphasizes the divine standard given in the law of God what He wants to say here is, the inside is infinitely more revealing, infinitely more important than the outside. What you are on the inside is what God is concerned with. Jesus emphasized here in the Sermon on the Mount and frankly throughout His whole ministry, that external ceremonies, that exter­nal religious rites, that certain works are not the whole issue. That God is concerned with the heart. And that is precisely the thrust of verse 20, look at it.

"I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Now the scribes and the Pharisees had a righteousness that was external. And what Jesus is saying is you must have one that exceeds that which is internal. God is concerned about what you really are not what you appear to be. It is the internal that is infinitely more important than the external.

That is essentially what verse 20 means. The righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees was an external, ceremonial, ritualistic, hypocritical legalism. And the righteousness that God demands is something internal. And, by the way, it's always been God's concern, it isn't anything new, Jesus isn't articulating something never before known. In I Kings 8:39, the Scripture said, "Then hear now in heaven thy dwelling place and forgive and give to every man according to his ways", listen to this, "Whose heart thou knowest for thou, even thou only knowest the hearts of all the children of men." And so God is enjoined in that verse to respond to men not on the basis of outward deeds but on the basis of the heart which God alone knows...

...Second Chronicles chapter 16 and verse 9, "For the eyes of the Lord runneth to and fro throughout the whole earth to shoe himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him." Psalm 7 verse 9, "The righteous God testeth the minds and hearts." Proverbs 16:2, "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes but the Lord weighs the spirit." A man may justify his ways but God will weigh his spirit. Jeremiah 17:10, God says, "I the Lord search the heart, I test the conscious even to give every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings."...

...Then, in verses 13 to 16 He went on to show how people with that kind of character function in the world And He pointed out two things, they become salt in verse 13 and they become light in verse 14. People who live that way salt the earth, light the world. They are the only hope for society. They are the only hope for the truth reaching lost man. And so He has said, this is what God requires, it's internal character. And this is how God uses people with that kind of character.

Now at this point He shows how such people living by such principles relate to the Old Testament law. Why? Because this is critical to the Jews listening to Him speak...He has to show how this relates to their system. And really verse 20 is the key. He says - God's standard is higher than yours. What you now know as a righteous standard is unacceptable.

Now they're going to immediately say - Wait a minute! We obey the law of God. And in essence Jesus is saying, I have to redefine the law of God for you because it's been lost in the midst of your tradition. So that, in fact, and I want you to get this, the Judaism of the time was far from that true Old Testament law which God had given. And so Jesus is saying essentially in verse 17 - I am not here to destroy the law, I'm not here to destroy the prophets. In fact, til heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall in any way pass from this law. And I'm not going to tolerate anybody who sets aside one of God's commands but what you have is not God's standard. What you have is not God's law. And so I will redefine it for you...

Now let's see how He goes about it in chapter 5. Look at verse 21. And watch this common occurrence. "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old thou shalt not kill and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment. But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment." Stop right there. Jesus says - You have heard it said - but I say unto you. Now look at verse 27. "You have heard that it was said by them of old thou shalt not commit adultery but I say unto you that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart." Again He says - You have heard it said - but I say unto you.

Look at verse 31. "It hath been said whosoever shall put away his wife let him give her a writing of divorcement but I say unto you that whosoever shall put away his wife except for the cause of fornication causes her to commit adultery." Same formula. You've heard it said - but I say. Verse 33, again, "Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old thou shalt not perjure thyself but shall perform under the Lord thine oaths but I say unto you swear not at all." Verse 38, "Ye have heard that it hath been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but I say unto you ye shall resist not evil but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek turn to him the other also." And finally in verse 43, "Ye have heard that it hath been said thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy but I say unto you love your enemies."...

...And He's saying - Your standard is too low. You only worry about murder God looks at the heart and says if there's hate there it's the same thing. You only murder or worry about fornication. God says if there's lust in the heart it's the same thing. You see, God's standard is an attitudinal standard; yours is only dealing with action. That's the difference. Jesus said - It's not only in God's eyes the man who commits murder who is guilty but the man who is angry is just as guilty and just as liable to be judged. Jesus said - That in God's eyes it is not only the man who commits the act of adultery who is guilty but the one who allows the unclean desire to find root in his heart. Jesus said - That in God's eyes it is not only the one who perjures himself but anyone whose word is not his absolute bond. Jesus said - That in God's sight it is not only wrong to divorce without a bill of divorcement but it is wrong to divorce without a just cause. Jesus said - that in God's sight not only is there to be justice but there is to be mercy. Jesus said that we are not only to love our neighbors but God says we are to love our enemies. And what He's doing is listing the law, stripping it of the traditional barnacles of rabbinic confusion. Elevating it to where it belongs and saying you cannot get away with justification on the basis of externals because you didn't murder or because you didn't commit adultery or because you didn't divorce or because you didn't perjure yourself or because you did what was just or because you loved your neighbor, that is not enough. Those are only the externals. The internals are what God is looking after...

...And so the Lord Jesus Christ, don't think it for a minute, did not come to set aside the law of God, He came to strip the rabbinic barnacles off the law of God, to make it bare and naked and pure as it was when God gave it and lift it back to where it belongs. God had always been concerned with attitudes, always. That isn't anything new. But the people of Israel had lowered the standard. And then justified themselves by what they didn't do while their hearts were full of murder, full of lust, full of lies, full of hate, full of anger, and yet they were self-righteous because they had lowered the standard to accommodate their abilities. Jesus lifted it right back where it belonged.

And what our Lord is saying is this: thoughts are just as important as deeds. That's why no man can be justified on his own. You may not do the deed but if you thought the thought you're damned...

...It is the Lord that judges me, therefore, verse 5 says, "Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the", I'll substitute a word, "motives of the hearts." [1 Corinth 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.] You see. You can stop right there. That's the point. When God judges righteous judgment He judges motives. He judges inside. You may be one who goes through life and you never struck a blow to anyone. Why you've never killed anybody, you've never even fought with anybody but you literally burn inside with anger. You may be one who's never been unfaithful in your marriage but you cultivate the thoughts of adultery repeatedly. You may be one who's never perjured yourself in a court of law and yet your word is not really your bond, you don't always follow through and in your heart you say things you never mean to keep. That's what God is looking at. You may want so bad to do something and all your life never do it and God says it's as if you did it. And God judges the evil desire.

And so you see Jesus is literally hitting these Pharisees right between the eyes. Their hearts were filthy while their deeds were religious. And God looks at the heart. Patrick Fairbairn again says, "The scribes and Pharisees of that age had completely inverted the order of things, their carnality and self-righteousness had led them to exalt the precepts respecting ceremonial observances to the highest places and to throw the duties inculcated in the Ten Commandments into the background." They just dealt with externals. The state of the heart was not their concern but it was Jesus' concern.

Look at our society; they do this all the time. Oh, soand-so is such a good person. Oh, so-and-so is so charitable. We hear this all the time. But only God knows what's going on inside, only God knows what motives are behind what we do...

...And that is what our Lord is referring to. You have heard that it was said by the rabbis of old. In other words, this is a designation related to their oral teaching. That glossed over the true law of God that added their own thoughts to the revelation of the Old Testament. And so Jesus is not contrasting the Old Testament with the New Testament. Not contrasting His word with God's Word but with the word of the rabbis and their traditional interpretation which had been given to the people...

...And so when the Lord says, You have heard that it was said by them of old He is saying the religion you have is the oral tradition of the rabbis not the written word of God, you see. Very critical. The embellishments and traditions and interpretations and dilations and additions and all of the garbage that was added, which became the Mishna, the codification of oral law, the Talmud and all of that other stuff which padded the truth of God into obscurity. Jesus says that's what you've been hearing, just as the Roman Catholic Church obliterated the truth by keeping the people ignorant of the Scriptures, so the people were ignorant of the Scriptures in the time of the rabbis. And because they couldn't speak Hebrew they couldn't verify what they were getting.

And so our Lord comes along and says I am here to loose the law of God from the shackles of rabbinic mishmash. And most significantly, He attacks their emphasis on external works righteousness. And so He says you have heard it said by them of old, and then He says in verse 22, but I say unto you... And, beloved, here He sets Himself up as the authority. This is tremendous. He says I tell you what God's law is. This literally shattered the people. They couldn't handle this. They were shocked. They said, of Him, He taught as one having authority, not as the Scribes, Mark 1:22. In Matthew 7 as He concluded His sermon they said He taught as one having authority and not as the scribes, twice that is said. They couldn't believe that He would stand up and say that. They were shocked for someone to set himself as equal to the law of God, oh my...

...Jesus stands up and says, "I say unto you..." and they were devastated. Who are You? The prophets always said, "Thus saith the Lord." The rabbis said there is a teaching that says but Jesus said - I say unto you. And William Barkley says - "Clearly one of two things must be true. Either Jesus is mad or unique. Either He is a meglomaniac or else He is the Son of God. No ordinary person would claim what He claimed." End quote. He claims the authority of God. Devastating. And He strips all of the garbage off and lifts God's law back where it belongs.

Now let me close this introduction by summarizing the key principles He's teaching in the passage.

Principle one, and I want you to remember that these are the things that are in the mind of Jesus in this whole section. Number one, it is the spirit of the law that is the priority not the letter...God is not looking for externals He's looking for changed hearts...Conformity to God's law is a matter of the heart not simply a matter of the outside. Oh what a lesson this is to us who tend too to justify ourselves...

...Second principle, the law is not just negative it is also positive. The law of God is not just to prevent us from doing certain things it's real object is to lead us to right attitudes...God was concerned with what they did do inside. Did they hunger after righteousness? Did they thirst after righteousness? Did they seek to be merciful? Were they pure in heart? Did they mourn over their sin? Were they poor in terms of spirit? Were they peacemakers? That's what God was concerned with. This is spiritual character. Positive not just negative...

...Third principle, the law is not an end in itself...Listen, the Pharisees said, the goal of the law is to glorify me when I keep the law. Look at me, see how righteous I am. But the end of the law was to glorify God. Don't ask yourself have I kept all the laws today? Ask yourself have I glorified God in my spirit today...

...Listen, if some king by edict forbids fornication, murder or theft, I admit, says Calvin, that a man who doesn't commit such acts will not be bound by the penalty. That is because the mortal lawgiver's jurisdiction extends only to the outward political order. But God whose eye nothing escapes and who is concerned not so much with outward appearance as with purity of heart forbids not only fornication, murder and theft but lust, anger, hatred, coveting and deceit for since He is a spiritual lawgiver...What Calvin means is if you think God's laws are only external then you don't know the character of God.

A fourth principle, God alone can judge men. God alone can judge men. Listen, He alone sees the secrets of the heart. He knows you. He knows if you're really a Christian or if playing a game....But oh the next verse says, "We have a faithful sympathetic high priest and let us come boldly before the throne of grace to seek mercy in time of need." Isn't it great? God knows our hearts, He knows if they're rotten but He stands with His arms open as a sympathetic high priest ready to give us grace and mercy. God alone can judge the heart. And tell me this, isn't it true? Many a man and woman can stand the judgment of men but will fall before the discerning eye of God? You better examine your own heart.

A final principle, every person is commanded to live up to divine standards. That's right. Every person. Every person is commanded to live up to divine standards. I say unto you unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven. Chapter 5 closes with this, "Be ye therefore perfect even as your father who is in heaven is perfect." Every person in the world is required to live up to that standard. You say, you've got to be kidding. I'm not kidding you. I'm not kidding. You mean I have to live to that standard with a pure inside as well as a right outside? Yes. You say, but I can't. You're right. You are absolutely right. And that's why the apostle Paul gave the solution in Romans chapter 3. Romans 3: 10, "There is none righteous", what's the rest of the verse? "No not one." You say, John, Christ set a standard I can't obtain. And so says Paul in verse 21, "The righteousness of God is apart from the law manifested." How? "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." Did you get it? You can't be that righteous. But listen, Christ is that righteous and He gives His righteousness to those who believe. Isn't that great? God sets the standard, you can't live up to it and God says, My son is not only the lawgiver but He is the Redeemer. Who makes it possible for you to live on that level? Beloved, it's a fantastic thing. The standard is so high we can't obtain it. Christ met the standard and imputes to us his righteousness. Apart from the law we couldn't keep the law. Oh what a blessed thing.

You look at your heart and you say the outsides not bad, the inside is rotten. And if God did what was right He would consume you in a blast of His fury. But because He's a merciful and gracious God He makes His lawgiver not just a lawgiver but a Redeemer. And Jesus perfectly kept the law and He imputes His righteousness to us so that when God looks at believers He sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ covering that person. And I stand before God as righteous as Christ. But, beloved, you can't even have that gift of righteousness unless you recognize that what you need is that gift of righteousness. As long as you live your life justifying yourself on your external behavior you'll never come to the desperation that reaches out and accepts the gift of righteousness...

[Mr Rogers]

In the thread "The Petrine Fact, Part 4: Peter, Paul, and James" (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2337630/posts), posts 60 & 62 deserved a better reply. This sermon discusses why the Sermon on the Mount drives us to our knees and requires a Savior.

It also explains why it is impossible for man to earn Heaven. If someone adds works to grace, they err - our works cannot merit anything from God. What we need is a new heart - to become a new creation. Only a new birth makes it possible for us to do good in the sight of God.

Penance does one no good, nor indulgences - our acts cannot cancel out our sin. As John the Baptist put it, ""Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

For further reading, I suggest Martin Luther's Preface to the Commentary on Romans, available here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/romans/files/romans.html

[Mr Rogers]

Ping

[Campion]

Penance does one no good, nor indulgences - our acts cannot cancel out our sin.

If you think Catholics believe that penance and indulgences have some efficacy apart from Christ, you're very, very much mistaken, and the people who told you that were misleading you, perhaps knowingly. (That's the sin of bearing false witness, BTW.)

There's nothing wrong with a repentant, justified, grace-filled son of God making restitution to his heavenly Father. That's what a loving and grateful son does.

But no amount of penance can make an unjustified sinner into a justified and grace-filled son of God by adoption. That can only be done by God's grace.

That's the de fide dogmatic teaching of the Catholic church. A Catholic who rejects it is a material heretic.

[Mr Rogers]

restitution: 1. The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. 2. The act of making good or compensating for loss, damage, or injury; indemnification.

A good deed or punishment does not restore anything to God, nor does it correct any loss by Him.

“Penance is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same...This reconciliation implies first of all that the guilt of sin is remitted, and consequently also the eternal punishment due to mortal sin. As the Council of Trent declares, penance requires the performance of satisfaction “not indeed for the eternal penalty which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or by the desire of receiving the sacrament, but for the temporal penalty which, as the Scriptures teach, is not always forgiven entirely as it is in baptism” (Sess. VI, c. 14). In other words baptism frees the soul not only from all sin but also from all indebtedness to Divine justice, whereas after the reception of absolution in penance, there may and usually does remain some temporal debt to be discharged by works of satisfaction...As stated above, the absolution given by the priest to a penitent who confesses his sins with the proper dispositions remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment (of mortal sin). There remains, however, some indebtedness to Divine justice which must be cancelled here or hereafter (see PURGATORY). In order to have it cancelled here, the penitent receives from his confessor what is usually called his “penance”, usually in the form of certain prayers which he is to say, or of certain actions which he is to perform, such as visits to a church, the Stations of the Cross, etc. Alms deeds, fasting, and prayer are the chief means of satisfaction, but other penitential works may also be enjoined.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

The basis for penance is that God hasn’t fully forgiven, and that we must do deeds of good to pay back - make satisfaction to - God. Our good deeds then satisfy God’s justice. That is an external based, accounting approach to sin and forgiveness.

God judges our heart. He judges our inside. Or He forgives our sin and creates a new heart within us. “ “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” and “9So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”

Not penance, not restitution - believe, and be born again.

[MarkBsnr]

Appreciate the ping. An interesting article.

***Now most people evaluate their lives and the lives of other people on external appearance. I Samuel 16:7 says, “Man looketh on the outward appearance.” Jesus said A John 17:24, “Judge not according to the appearance but righteous judgment.” In II Cor. chapter 10 the apostle Paul said, “Do you look on things after the outward appearance? We dare not make ourselves of the number or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves.” There are people who commend themselves on the basis of their outward appearance. There are people who are satisfied with how they behave externally. There are people who evaluate others on the basis of what they see, visibly, on terms of religious behavior.***

And that is correct. But judgement of people is not the Judgement of God.

*** Principle one, and I want you to remember that these are the things that are in the mind of Jesus in this whole section. Number one, it is the spirit of the law that is the priority not the letter...God is not looking for externals He’s looking for changed hearts...Conformity to God’s law is a matter of the heart not simply a matter of the outside. Oh what a lesson this is to us who tend too to justify ourselves...***

God also Judges us on the externals. This is not exactly on target.

***...Second principle, the law is not just negative it is also positive. The law of God is not just to prevent us from doing certain things it’s real object is to lead us to right attitudes...God was concerned with what they did do inside. Did they hunger after righteousness? Did they thirst after righteousness? Did they seek to be merciful? Were they pure in heart? Did they mourn over their sin? Were they poor in terms of spirit? Were they peacemakers? That’s what God was concerned with. This is spiritual character. Positive not just negative...***

To the extent of this passage, okay, I’ll agree with it.

*** ...Third principle, the law is not an end in itself...Listen, the Pharisees said, the goal of the law is to glorify me when I keep the law. Look at me, see how righteous I am. But the end of the law was to glorify God. Don’t ask yourself have I kept all the laws today? Ask yourself have I glorified God in my spirit today... ***

I think that we are wandering off the mark again. The point of knowing whether you have glorified God is in the observance of the laws.

***A fourth principle, God alone can judge men. God alone can judge men. Listen, He alone sees the secrets of the heart. He knows you. He knows if you’re really a Christian or if playing a game....But oh the next verse says, “We have a faithful sympathetic high priest and let us come boldly before the throne of grace to seek mercy in time of need.” Isn’t it great? God knows our hearts, He knows if they’re rotten but He stands with His arms open as a sympathetic high priest ready to give us grace and mercy. God alone can judge the heart. And tell me this, isn’t it true? Many a man and woman can stand the judgment of men but will fall before the discerning eye of God? You better examine your own heart.***

The thing is that it is not merely subjective. I have often discussed the idea that morality (and therefore the basis for personal Judgement) is objective and not subjective. This author leans heavily to the idea that the personal behaviour and morality is subjective. That is where I think that he misses it.

***You look at your heart and you say the outsides not bad, the inside is rotten. And if God did what was right He would consume you in a blast of His fury. But because He’s a merciful and gracious God He makes His lawgiver not just a lawgiver but a Redeemer. And Jesus perfectly kept the law and He imputes His righteousness to us so that when God looks at believers He sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ covering that person. And I stand before God as righteous as Christ. But, beloved, you can’t even have that gift of righteousness unless you recognize that what you need is that gift of righteousness. As long as you live your life justifying yourself on your external behavior you’ll never come to the desperation that reaches out and accepts the gift of righteousness...***

That is why I believe that the Reformation has eliminated the mathematical operator ‘and’. You are Judged on your motivations and beliefs and also on what you have done. Jesus harps upon external deeds as well as a change of heart. More so, in fact.

[MarkBsnr]

***A good deed or punishment does not restore anything to God, nor does it correct any loss by Him.***

Penance is not about God; it is about the individual man. If you have committed a sin, you ought to be issued a penance of some kind in order to teach a lesson, in order to help make it stick in your mind.

***The basis for penance is that God hasn’t fully forgiven, and that we must do deeds of good to pay back - make satisfaction to - God. Our good deeds then satisfy God’s justice. That is an external based, accounting approach to sin and forgiveness.***

No, God has fully forgiven. It is that, for example, if man has aggrieved his neighbour by committing some physical act, then he is responsible for righting the results of that physical act. The Divine Justice is not just about man’s relationship with God; it is about man’s relationship with man. As Jesus told us over and over.

***Not penance, not restitution - believe, and be born again.***

But the damage remains. That is what St. Paul talks about in the burning away of one’s deeds.

[Marysecretary]

Thank you, Mr Rogers. That’s a wonderful answer.

[Iscool]

But the damage remains. That is what St. Paul talks about in the burning away of one’s deeds.

That's not what the scripture says...

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Every thing we do, every work we perform whether good or bad, every sin we commit, will run thru the fire...

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

The pleasing things to God that we have done will abide...They will survive the fire...And we'll be rewarded...

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

Suffer loss of what??? Suffer loss of rewards...

but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The fire doesn't burn us...The fire doesn't hurt us...We don't go thru the fire...

Again,

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is

We are saved by the fire because the fire burns up everything that could be used against us in judgement...The fire doesn't touch us...It touches our works...The evidence is gone...There is no damage that remains...

[Mr Rogers]

“If you have committed a sin, you ought to be issued a penance of some kind in order to teach a lesson, in order to help make it stick in your mind.”

If you have been born again, the Holy Spirit will speak to you. However, if you refuse to listen, then God treats us the way I treat my horses - he puts pressure on us until we relent. That is discipline, caused by our not listening to his voice - not punishment.

This is completely different from penance. “As stated above, the absolution given by the priest to a penitent who confesses his sins with the proper dispositions remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment (of mortal sin). There remains, however, some indebtedness to Divine justice which must be cancelled here or hereafter (see PURGATORY). In order to have it cancelled here, the penitent receives from his confessor what is usually called his “penance”...”

Notice, it says “there remains, however, some indebtedness to Divine justice...” - not to other men, not to make it stick in our mind, but “indebtedness to Divine justice”. And if not paid in this life, then it is to be paid in Purgatory. Not restitution paid to the man you sinned against, but to God.

That is sin that hasn’t been fully paid for - but God says, “’Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus...”

Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. Sounds complete. And therefor, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin - when the debt has been paid in full, there is no reason to pay any further. And we couldn’t have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place unless we had been fully cleansed, and made pure - or “perfect forever”, to use the term the writer of Hebrews uses a few sentences earlier.

And Paul doesn’t talk about “the burning away of one’s deeds.” He talks of building the church with stone or hay,m and fire will REVEAL (make manifest) which it was. 1 Corinthians 3 talks about God revealing what we’ve done, not purifying us from anything. It is a form of judgment, not discipline or even punishment.

But Jesus paid the price.

[Mr Rogers]

“You are Judged on your motivations and beliefs and also on what you have done.”

If you have been born again, made a new creation with the Holy Spirit within you, then you will not be judged for condemnation. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

The works we do after salvation are the fruit - as Jesus says, “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

Please notice a few things. A Christian WILL bear good fruit (”every good tree bears good fruit”), but an unbeliever CANNOT (”a bad tree cannot bear good fruit”).

He also says by their fruit YOU will recognize them. Jesus doesn’t need to see the fruit, since “he knew all men. He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man”.

As Iscool indicates, believers face a judgment for reward. Unbelievers face judgment for their rebellion against God.

[kosta50]

No, God has fully forgiven

Why did perfect God make an imperfect world than needs forgiveness? That's like knowingly making a chair that you know will fall apart as soon as someone sits on it, and you are there to catch them and save them from the fall!

[Mr Rogers]

One explanation would be that God thought the final outcome would be worth all it took to get there.

How can man, whose knowledge is infinitesimal and whose thoughts are based on the briefest moment of time, judge someone infinite in both knowledge and time? When I build a house, I don’t ask an ant if it is worth it...

[kosta50]

One explanation would be that God thought the final outcome would be worth all it took to get there

Maybe we should better rephrase that as "One rationalization would be that..."? But a belief based on rationalizations is just that, a rationalization, that is an invented, although plausible, "explanation" for causes we either cannot understand or don't have enough information to understand.

How can man, whose knowledge is infinitesimal and whose thoughts are based on the briefest moment of time, judge someone infinite in both knowledge and time?

That's rationalizing that there must be "someone" infinite in both knowledge and time (or maybe outside, independent of time). But, of course, man in his capacity cannot possibly have a full knowledge of the manifested universe, either of its structure and of it cause, or whether it had a single or many causes, or how it was brought it about.

To try to comprehend that is as impossible for us as it is for an ant to know human civilization, know when and how it came about and to have a clear idea of the whole planet earth and its apparent unlimited size.

If an ant had human intelligence it is doubtful that he would ever come to know this world of ours as it really is. He would be likely led to create plausible explanations as to why and what or "who" made all this, and it would very much depend on the area or neighborhood where the ant lived and is likely to live all his generations.

When I build a house, I don’t ask an ant if it is worth it...

And you wouldn't expect to establish a "personal" relationship with an ant either, or "reveal" to him why is your yard the way it is, or eat the pesticide in your lawn to save the ant, or tell the ant to eat your body so that he may be one with you...you get the picture I am sure.

A lot of what we take for granted and "normal" has to do with what we saw at home. When I was growing up I took a lot of things for granted and was amazed to find out that what we had others didn't, and only wished they did.

What we believe has a lot to do with the culture we grow up in. If you were born in Nepal, I doubt that you would be a Baptist. I am pretty sure that if you were born in Israel to Jewish parents you would probably adhere to Jewish beliefs, or to Eastern Orthodoxy if you were born and raised in Greece.

Our beliefs are man-made and man-flavored. How and where we are raised has a lot to do with our perspective. Someone illustrated that once with a story of Martians secretly studying human cultures and reporting back to their headquarters about different religions. When it came to Catholics the report said: "Members of the tribe worship a dead body on a cross and eat his flesh and drink his blood."

Of course, Catholics/Orthodox don't experience it the same way; they see nothing gross about it. They don't see a dead body on the cross and they are not disgusted by the thought that they receive the Body and Blood of their Lord. But it's a matter of perspective.

The same goes with eating meat. If people had to kill their own animals and prepare them, we would probably have fewer carnivorous humans. We also don't see "body parts" when we pick our favorite steak, chicken legs, hearts and kidneys for chicken soup, or associate some marine crustaceans with large spiders and bugs.

But place a dead lamb's or pig's head on display, or serve a whole fish, head and eyes still there, fried beetles, a snake on a platter, dog or cat meat or even a horse meat, and people will get grossed out! Now you can imagine how Indians form India experience our fascination with hamburgers (cows to them, I am sure you know, are holy animals)!

What we eat and what we believe is a product of human culture. We don't know what made all this, we don't know that it was a single cause, or anything else about it. We just know that we see a world which is too big for us to comprehend and we make up plausible explanations (i.e. "try to make sense") of the incomprehensible within the limits of reason and taste of our culture.

[MarkBsnr]

***1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

The pleasing things to God that we have done will abide...They will survive the fire...And we’ll be rewarded...

1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:

Suffer loss of what??? Suffer loss of rewards...

but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The fire doesn’t burn us...The fire doesn’t hurt us...We don’t go thru the fire...***

Read some other translations of 1 Corinthians. They are much clearer in that they describe the individual as being saved after going through either an actual or metaphysical fire. Even this translation can easily be read that way.

Matthew 5:
25
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 25:
31
Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit 22 will not be forgiven.
32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The age to come. The age of the earth is over and all men have met their Judgement. Therefore, the forgiveness occurs after their Judgement - there is a process involved. We call that Purgatory.

[MarkBsnr]

***If you have been born again, the Holy Spirit will speak to you. However, if you refuse to listen, then God treats us the way I treat my horses - he puts pressure on us until we relent. That is discipline, caused by our not listening to his voice - not punishment.***

That is certainly one way to look at it. But I have presented evidence that that pressure or discipline can occur after death as well. Else why would Paul pray for the dead?

***This is completely different from penance. “As stated above, the absolution given by the priest to a penitent who confesses his sins with the proper dispositions remits both the guilt and the eternal punishment (of mortal sin). There remains, however, some indebtedness to Divine justice which must be cancelled here or hereafter (see PURGATORY). In order to have it cancelled here, the penitent receives from his confessor what is usually called his “penance”...”

Notice, it says “there remains, however, some indebtedness to Divine justice...” - not to other men, not to make it stick in our mind, but “indebtedness to Divine justice”. And if not paid in this life, then it is to be paid in Purgatory. Not restitution paid to the man you sinned against, but to God.***

There is also restitution to be made to the man sinned against; but if you are sinning, the sin is always against God since you are missing the mark and are disobedient.

Much of the Holy Spirit’s conversation with us is not listened to by us, or else misunderstood. As evidenced by all the things that people do, especially in the name of God.

If you do not think that 1 Corinthians does not speak to the burning of the individual as if by fire, then consider this: Matthew 18:
23
That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
24
20 When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
25
Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.
26
21 At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’
27
Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.
28
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. 22 He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
29
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30
But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.
31
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.
32
His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
33
Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’
34
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. 23

Handed over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. A key point. Let us put this in juxtaposition with Romans 8:
1
1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

No condemnation. Repay the whole debt under torture. The Catholic teaching about purgatory is that if, at the end of a Christian’s earthly life, this debt of justice was not satisfied, he shall be purified in purgatory before entering heaven.

When the debt is satisfied, the agony will be over. This cannot be hell since hell is forever and one cannot get out. It cannot be heaven since in heaven there is only Almighty God and there is no pain and every tear will be wiped away. Therefore there is something else. The process of purification since nothing unclean or in a state of sin shall enter heaven.

[Iscool]

Read some other translations of 1 Corinthians.

I did...I read the Douay Rheims version...It agrees with the KJV...Your Saint Jerome and the KJV translators agree...

They are much clearer in that they describe the individual as being saved after going through either an actual or metaphysical fire. Even this translation can easily be read that way.

That doesn't mean it's much clearer...That means people didn't like what the verse said so they changed it...

The verses are already crystal clear...Your works will be burned and the good works will survive the fire...And then, you will be saved, because of the fire...The fire burns up anything that may not otherwise pass judgment...

I realize the idea is to make those verses line up with your idea of purgatory but that's impossible...You have to twist it like a pretzel to get it to mean purgatory and even that doesn't work...

1Co 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This scripture is written to Christians...And only Christians...This is NOT the final judgment in the 'age to come' where unsaved people will be judged...This is the judgment of Christians...This judgment takes place when the soul leaves the body of the Christian, at death...And no one is condemned...

The verses you cite from Matthew are to Jews...There's not a born again Christian in the bunch...

[MarkBsnr]

***If you have been born again, made a new creation with the Holy Spirit within you, then you will not be judged for condemnation. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”***

If I understand you correctly, you see ‘believer’ and ‘non believer’ as black or white. Is that a valid thing to believe? For instance, are there degrees of belief? What about the Oneness Pentecostal who believes deeply but does not believe in the Trinity. Does that make him a believer or non believer? What about the Baptist who refuses to baptize his child and does not believe in the Eucharist. Is this a degree of belief? What about a Christian who believes in heaven and not in hell? I don’t really think that there is a finite point of either/or. I think that there are degrees. As well, I think that there are degrees of purity and that the greater the impurity, the greater the events to purify those who will be saved.

***Please notice a few things. A Christian WILL bear good fruit (”every good tree bears good fruit”), but an unbeliever CANNOT (”a bad tree cannot bear good fruit”).***

Again, degrees.

***As Iscool indicates, believers face a judgment for reward. Unbelievers face judgment for their rebellion against God.***

If you read the accounts of Judgement, though, those Judged may be thrown in everlasting hell based upon their deeds.

[MarkBsnr]

***Why did perfect God make an imperfect world than needs forgiveness? That’s like knowingly making a chair that you know will fall apart as soon as someone sits on it, and you are there to catch them and save them from the fall!***

Perhaps God wants us to develop as we teach a child to grow and develop. Perhaps God has not created man perfect but wants us to strive towards perfection. So be perfect as my Father is perfect...

[Mr Rogers]

My goodness!

Paul didn’t pray for the dead, that we know of. However, I have - specifically for my Mom and Dad. Both knew OF the Gospel, but neither accepted it - that I know of. However, my Dad died 10 months in to a tour in Vietnam, so what he thought about or did during those months is largely unknown to me. He also had some amount of time before he died where he knew death was coming - the rotor came off of the helicopter, which left no options as it fell to the earth. What did he think about at the end of his life? I don’t know.

My Mom slipped into dementia. During the last year of her life, she often talked with my wife (but not me) about God. As her mind slipped away, did she turn to God? My wife thinks so, but I have no way of knowing.

However, God knows, just as He knows my prayers before I make them. I see no reason to limit God to prayers made before the event, if I don’t know the outcome. If I was certain my parents hadn’t repented, there would be no reason to pray for them after their death. But since I don’t know, then the God who knew my prayers before I made them may have answered them before I made them as well.

Praying for the dead does not in any way imply an intermediate state. I have more than once prayed for something, only to find out later that God had granted my prayer well before I prayed it. The limit is with me, not God.

But if my parents died without repenting, then only judgment awaits them. Our choices are made in this life, not the next - as Catholic theology teaches as well.

And I would never pray that someone would be forgiven of repented sins, since there is no need - when God forgives, He forgives. There is no remaining “Divine Justice” needing satisfaction. Jesus paid the price in full.

---

Matthew 18 teaches about US forgiving sin. It starts with:

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

This is about forgiving others, and how to handle it when someone in the church refuses to forgive you.

It then follows:

“Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.”

When Peter asks how often he has to forgive someone else, Jesus in essence replies, ‘As often as he sins against you.’

He then goes on and explains, “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.

So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.

But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.

So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

The first thing to note is that this is a PARABLE. Parables have specific purposes, and are not to be taken as an actual description. For example, in the parable where Jesus taught about the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man goes to hell and the poor man sees him - that doesn’t mean that in heaven, we will spend our time watching those in hell suffering, and hold conversations with them. PARABLES tell stories that illustrate a specific lesson, and the details of the story are not meant to teach other doctrines.

And what is the specific purpose of this parable? It is to teach us that we, who have been forgiven so much by God, must also forgive those who sins against us are trivial compared to our sins against God.

If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. “Forgive us our trespasses, AS we forgive those who trespass against us.” And when one has been born again, the Holy Spirit will make certain you understand it! That doesn’t always make it easy, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to rest while you refuse to forgive someone’s sin against you.

The sentence, “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt” is part of the story about a HUMAN master - what did you expect it to say? That the man would be turned over to the jailers for eternal punishment? No human can do that, and the master in the story is human.

Someone who holds on to the anger they feel against others for the wrongs done against them, and who doesn’t repent of doing so, hasn’t been born again. I’ve tried. I’ve tried very hard. The Holy Spirit will not suffer it!

And in this story, the wicked servant is NOT a Christian. That is the point - when he refuses to forgive, the master refuses to forgive his (previously forgiven) debt. At the end of the story, ALL of his debt is held against him. He has been forgiven NOTHING! He isn’t a Christian - he is an evil man.

It isn’t a teaching about Purgatory. It is a teaching about forgiveness, and it teaches that if we refuse to forgive - even 7 x 70 times - that we will not be forgiven.

And did you notice this? “And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.” Does this mean that our wife and family will share our eternal punishment? No - but that is why one shouldn’t take each sentence in a parable and use it to derive doctrine that has nothing to do with the parable.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Unless I missed it in the article or the comments, I am surprised that no one has seen the obvious description of this concept given by the Christ in Matthew 15: 10-20;

 

Matthew 15:10-20 (New King James Version)

¹⁰ When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: ¹¹ Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
¹² Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
¹³ But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. ¹⁴ Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
¹⁵ Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”
¹⁶ So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? ¹⁷ Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? ¹⁸ But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. ¹⁹ For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. ²⁰ These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

God can see our heart so we do not have to physically do these things to be guilty. He knows that as long as we have these thoughts they will fester until we can no longer resist the urge to fulfill those desires. Jesus made this statement to Old Testament individuals who did not have God's Spirit as a buffer to control those urges.

It was explained to me years ago in this manner.  You own two dogs. A black one and a white one. Which ever dog you feed the most will be the strongest and the hardest to control. Our soul is born with a black dog from our earthly father, Satan. When we are born again, we get a white dog from our adoptive Father in heaven and free will to feed both dogs. Which ever dog we feed the most will determine the state of our heart.

To often people forget we are all going to die physically and put to much emphasis on health. Our body being the temple of the Holy Spirit is a prime example. Too many think we have to live a healthy physical life as not to destroy the temple. In actuality, the temple referred to is were the two dogs live after we accept Christ. If you allow the black dog to control that temple your spirit dies bringing eternal separation from God 

Our only hope is to feed the black dog food from the world as little as possible while keeping the white dog's bowl full with food from the pantry of God's Spirit. 

Unscriptural forgiveness and/or penance by a man has no bearing on these facts. It is only by our acceptance of Christ's finished work, us forgiving others their trespasses against us and God seeing His Son instead of us do we even have a chance at eternity with God.

As Mr Rogers eluded to in post 19 about his parents, all these things have to be done by us before our death. No amount of prayer by others before or after our death can suffice for what we did not do our self. BVB