Posted on 09/13/2009 2:54:05 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Ping
Couldn’t many of the same things be said about Noah’s Ark? I’ve heard atheist raise many of the same objections about Noah’s Ark. Our reply is that the Lord can accomplish any miracle he needs. How did Christ turn water into wine? Just because the human mind can’t conceive of how he did that in an instant means it could not have been done? What the human mind can’t grasp, God can nonetheless achieve. And none of the scriptures provide us with all the details for how these things occured, including how Noah in so short a time could have gathered up nearly every animal species known to man including poisonous and deadly animals like cobras, hippos, lions, etc., and then stored all the many, many different kinds of food these animals would have required and the water needed to hydrate them. Faith is not exclusive of science, or even what we might call “reason,” but neither is it disproven by it. God works in ways man’s mind can’t always wrap itself around.
No one knows what the mysterious substance was from which God had Noah construct the Ark. I sometimes speculate that the Ark was like Aslan’s Barn, a sort of “pocket universe” — something bigger on the inside than on the outside.
There's lots of speculation about Noah's ark. I don't recall anyone claiming that the Noah story was copied from golden plates given to a guy in upstate NY.
There ARE some artifacts that seem to fit the ark. Let us know when the Jaredite barges produce artifacts.
Yes, but that only means that both stories are not literal but allegorical. If you look at them you will see that they can't be real. We today - the whole civilization, if you wish - probably can't build a boat that would house every animal, plant and insect species for a year. We likely can't gather them all either, and we can't guarantee that they won't die during the trip - even though today we know a lot about animals of Earth. Noah would not know what most of the animals eat (we still don't know that about some species,) and it would be tough for him to travel (how?) to Americas, Europe and Australia and Antarctica to catch all that wildlife. If the God was seriously helping Noah with all that work then why to bother with Noah - his merely human efforts would be invisible on that scale.
Our reply is that the Lord can accomplish any miracle he needs.
It's a deus ex machina answer. It is certainly possible that a deity is capable of miracles, but in this case they are inefficiently placed. For example, instead of flooding the Earth with water (which the deity has to borrow somewhere and then return) it would be far more practical to spread a virus that kills only humans, and give the vaccine to a few chosen. You don't even need divine powers to do that.
I don't see anything in the Genesis text about Noah's instructions including "plants and insects." (I guess Noah needed you as His secretary and "Ark administrator" to ensure some missing instructions weren't missed) [But nice of you to imply that there's no way termites, for example, could "never" survive months on a floating log]
As for the animals, you assume, of course, the same number of species existed now as then. Can we hear your authority that tells us exactly how many species were on earth then? (And what is the basis for that conclusion?) Since naturalists already assume species grew in number at points in time, I'm not sure why they have a fit about others who might believe that species expanded in number after a point in time.
We likely can't gather them all either, and we can't guarantee that they won't die during the trip - even though today we know a lot about animals of Earth.
(So now you're telling us that just because Noah couldn't pull together an animal life insurance policy with the life insurance industry of his era that, "Nope. No way could a divine being guarantee 100% of their lives for months on end." [Wow, what a super tough assignment for a God working thru man -- pick young animals & keep them alive for months!]
Yes, but that only means that both stories are not literal but allegorical. If you look at them you will see that they can't be real....We likely can't gather them all either, and it would be tough for him to travel (how?) to Americas, Europe and Australia and Antarctica to catch all that wildlife.
Well, this only shows at the very least that you haven't read the original text...Here, I'll help you by highlighting the key words + reminding you that Hollywood, although not usually getting the text right, actually did get it right in one spot in the movie Evan Almighty:
Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. (Gen. 6:20)
(Otherwise, you're telling us that animals can honor a God-produced intuition that keeps them alive during a harsh winter or sprawling spring flood -- but God couldn't engineer a similar intuition elsewhere?)
If the God was seriously helping Noah with all that work then why to bother with Noah - his merely human efforts would be invisible on that scale.
You know what? For centuries, man has had absolutely zilcho ability to make many kinds of fruits & veggies from scratch (no seed factories, etc.) We could apply your same claim to that process: If God was seriously helping farmers with all that work involving food growth industry then why bother with farmers -- their merely human efforts would be invisible on that scale?
Noah would not know what most of the animals eat...
You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them. (Gen. 6:21)
Well, just as God gives "assignments" if you will to farmers & fruit growers to carry out without expecting every aspect of this process to be His alone, I think looking @ the common pet food store that man has somehow figured out what a lot of pets like to eat, don't you?
‘Zilla, I think the point of the Noah/Jaredite difference is there was a “Noah” God involved....the “Jaredite”...not so much.....
OOPA!..Colofornian, thought Godzilla had posted that reply.
Do ya want the boat or not?
I appreciate your postings, sir. Free information; the cultists will otherwise insist that there really are Quakers on the moon or equivalent.
MissesBush asked a good question; your response is an evasion.
If it was possible for Noah to build an ark according to God's command, then it would have been possible for others to build vessels according to God's command.
(Likewise, it would be possible for Joseph Smith to translate an ancient record by the gift and power of God.)
As for the article itself, I note that the author repeatedly asserts that the Jaredite barges were designed to turn upside down. Does the Book of Mormon ever make such a claim?
From a technical standpoint, a boat that is as capable upside down as rightside up will eitheer be (more or less), circular or rectangular. If it is circular in cross section, it will require ballast to keep from continually rolling like a barrel (the Mayflower etc. used stones), but these would kill everything in a flip-over. If it is rectangular like a barge, once flipped it will like as not never flip back, so no ballast needed, but everything would need to be designed such that it operated the same up or down (corrals, urine vats, water holding containers, etc. Imgine thousands of gallons of drinking water moving around during a flip.
In other words, the whole scenario is ludicrous.
Thank you Mark...I am quite familiar with the claims of the mormons...as in “(Likewise, it would be possible for Joseph Smith to translate an ancient record by the gift and power of God.)”. Possibilities do not become fact, IMO.
LOL!
Mormon fiction loses to scientific fact and principles. The design of the ark has been shown to be one (if not the most) stable ships that could have been designed, tested in the same manner as other ships.
The Jaredite 'barges' fail that test every time, they keep sinking.
***There’s lots of speculation about Noah’s ark. I don’t recall anyone claiming that the Noah story was copied from golden plates given to a guy in upstate NY. ****
But, didn’t Noah’s ark float down the Mississippi to sea when the rains came? ;-)
***Possibilities do not become fact, IMO.***
I am an engineer. The entire fantasy of these ships belongs with such as L. Ron Hubbard (who also concocted a religion). I supervise the development of manufacturing systems and oversee product design. This is not a viable product and cannot and will not perform as advertised.
Ok, now that is funny...
I do know I was seeing two of everything however...
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