Posted on 09/11/2009 1:14:40 PM PDT by Jedediah
You did not answer my question.
I called my flesh father dad, and never 'holy father'. It is common to find the word 'father' on all manner of unofficial and official documents, but they never refer to anything Spiritual or Heavenly or Creator. But the instruction was NOT given regarding a flesh physical biological father now was it?
His quote from Hebrews 12:23 is not correct. Look it up.
It is presumptuous to speak in the name of the Lord, especially when you speak nonsense. Your post is nonsense to this child of God, positionally in Christ, and indwelt by the Spirit.
***I called my flesh father dad, and never ‘holy father’. It is common to find the word ‘father’ on all manner of unofficial and official documents, but they never refer to anything Spiritual or Heavenly or Creator.***
May I refer you to 1 Corinthians 4:
14
I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 5
15
Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
16
Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me.
17
For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church.
Paul calls himself father and the Corinthians and Timothy his children. This is entirely spiritual and NOT at all in the physical sense.
Stephen also uses the term father to address the Pharisee in Act 7:
1
Then the high priest asked, “Is this so?”
2
And he replied, 1 “My brothers and fathers, listen.
The use of the term father in a spiritual sense is not proscribed whatsoever. Jesus was simply making a point that calling those spiritual teachers father who are frauds is wrong.
Let us now look at Matthew 23 in context.
8
6 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9
Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.
10
Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah.
11
The greatest among you must be your servant.
12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Have you ever called anyone Teacher, or Master? We all have. What is the point here? That one should not take arrogant titles upon one’s self. This is about teaching humility and the code of conduct in which Christians are expected to act. Not arrogant; rather humble. This can be taken in context with Jesus washing the feet of his Apostles.
***I operate in the five fold ministry doing God’s will and uplifting the Saints called by his name to bring the Bride of Christ together AS ONE !
The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry***
Thank you for the information. Yet another neo Pentecostal movement emerges. The question arises about how many of these Pentecostal movements are actually Christian judging by the rapidly increasing distance between them and the Gospels.
You want literal, you got literal: it does not specify "flesh" or "physical" or "biological." It says "And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, Which is in heaven."
So since you did just refer to your male parent as your father, you have violated your own rule.
This is quite the hallmark of a cult.
“Christ speaks through me. If you reject me and my message, you reject Christ.”
I spent most of yesterday in intimate Union with the Divine. A prolonged prayer and meditation that was unusual.
I was wondering if it were connected and obviously it is.
Who spoke these WORDS?
And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, Which is in heaven.
Post 36 you ignore the question but suppose the following. I suppose you never refer to your male parent as "father," and have never done so.
I respond to you with the following.
You did not answer my question.
I called my flesh father dad, and never 'holy father'. It is common to find the word 'father' on all manner of unofficial and official documents, but they never refer to anything Spiritual or Heavenly or Creator. But the instruction was NOT given regarding a flesh physical biological father now was it?
And still ignoring my question your respond with this.
You want literal, you got literal: it does not specify "flesh" or "physical" or "biological." It says "And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, Which is in heaven." So since you did just refer to your male parent as your father, you have violated your own rule.
So which is a worse sin to attribute WORDS to Christ or to deny WORDS spoken by Christ?
Now here are the WORDS of Christ, recorded and passed down to US. Matthew 23:1 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, Which is in heaven.
Christ continues through out the rest of the chapter telling us the multitudes what HE had to say about the religious community even unto this day and it is not in parable, but absolute truth.
This is not my rule this is the absolute truth out of the mouth of Christ. And if you paid close attention I used the verb call in the past tense called... my father, dad..... as my dad is NOT on this earth. When my 'dad' was on this earth I called him 'dad'.
The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry
figured as much.
There's a certain "feel" to the verbiage that you can recognize after a while.
I sure can't find it in my King James, but with the fad of new and better translations who knows what is suppose to be quoted.
Christ’s instruction in 23:9 can just as easily be translated as Dad.
Your post proposes a very literal understanding of Christ’s words....just not so literal to also include your violation of Christ’s words.
This is your own personal interpretation of Scripture and you are welcome to it. But it (YOPIOS) is demonstrably useless to me.
I will stick with the Church He founded to protect us, through the oversight of the Holy Spirit, from grotesque misinterpretations of Scripture, traditions of men, etc.
And you have violated it.
Why this rather petulant insistence that I answer your question? Where did you get the idea that I must answer your question?
My King James words ICorinthians 4:15 as follows: For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Now that gospel would included Christ's own instruction of Matthew 23:9 on both ends of the equations, meaning no man should set himself up as Father here on earth, nor should any be calling another flesh being 'Holy Father' here on this earth, as in replacement of the Heavenly Father.
Paul never called himself 'father' and none of his students addressed him as such. As a matter of fact Paul starts off this chapter in verse 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
As for your Acts citation, Stephen was not calling himself 'father', he is talking about literal fathers and specifically 'father' Abraham as the name Abraham literally means 'father of many nations', not in the religious sense of an earthly 'holy father'.
***My King James words ICorinthians 4:15 as follows: For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.***
Note the term ‘begotten’. I have begotten you. I have fathered you. That is what that means. I went online to find a KJV at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+4&version=NKJV and found:
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
Note: children, begotten, son in the Lord. Your point is noted and refuted.
***Now that gospel would included Christ’s own instruction of Matthew 23:9 on both ends of the equations, meaning no man should set himself up as Father here on earth, nor should any be calling another flesh being ‘Holy Father’ here on this earth, as in replacement of the Heavenly Father.***
Which gospel? The gospel of Paul? Are you saying that Paul’s gospel is more important than Christ’s?
But at any rate, using the same version of the KJV, let us see Matthew 23: 1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[b] and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[e] in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f] 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”[g]
Humility and arrogance, JMT. That is what this passage is about. It is not about forbidding the use of the term father or teacher. Paul uses it regularly as a bishop in the Church to describe himself in relation to his flock.
***Paul never called himself ‘father’ and none of his students addressed him as such. ***
Some more examples.
Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
1 Thessalonians 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; 11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged[b] every one of you, as a father does his own children, 12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
Phillippians 2:22 But you know his proven character, that as a son with his father he served with me in the gospel.
We also have 1 John 2:12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
And there are other examples as well. You focus on the out of context snippet and do not get the intent of the passage. That is the problem with sola scriptura personal interpretation.
***As a matter of fact Paul starts off this chapter in verse 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.***
That has nothing to do with the point.
***As for your Acts citation, Stephen was not calling himself ‘father’, he is talking about literal fathers and specifically ‘father’ Abraham as the name Abraham literally means ‘father of many nations’, not in the religious sense of an earthly ‘holy father’.***
This is in error in several ways. Abraham is the father of the Jews, where God first made the covenant with them. He is also considered the father of Christians and Muslims (by themselves, respectively). He is considered the spiritual father, not the nations’ father.
Jesus calls him father and Abraham is referenced in many Scriptural passages as father.
Stephen does not call himself father. I did not say that. I said that he called the Pharisees that he was addressing father and in that passage, he also calls Abraham father.
Personal interpretation error, my friend.
Does God really speak with brackets and quotation marks? Are you sure it wasn't Victor Borge you were talking to?
Does God really speak with brackets and quotation marks?
An emoticon too: "whom I am well pleased ! \o/ "
"Abecedarians! Bah!"
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