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To: Zionist Conspirator; Claud; metmom; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

You know I don’t really see how this relates to whether or not the Church Fathers were Catholic, but I’ll give you my take on your subtopic.

My problem with most creationists is that for too long they have allowed the Darwinists to control the debate.

Darwinism is not now nor has it ever been about whether or not mankind descended from tadpoles. Darwinism is about the left’s desire to destroy traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and replace God with the intellect and their tool for this has been to use eugenics to create the “right” population (i.e. the Master Race).

They have been delighted to spend the past century debating evolution, because while this debate has gone on they have MURDERED ONE BILLION HUMAN BEINGS all while being able to hide behind the facade of science. The average person has NO CLUE the amount of deadly destruction that Darwinism has brought. And the Darwinists have been able to do this because they know that deep down most people DO NOT believe that the Universe was created in six 24 hour days. The Darwinists also know that most people DO believe in God and DO believe that He created the Universe, so they simply shift the debate to an argument about time, biology and geology. The result, they make it appear that most people agree with them, when the reality is that most people haven’t even got a clue about their real agenda.

It would be like having a debate about the Nazis and only focusing on the Nazi book burnings. The Nazis would simply debate the matter of censorship because they realize that deep down ONLY the anarchists are totally opposed to all forms of censorship (I don’t care what anyone says, but at some point there is SOMETHING that they will agree the government should ban, perhaps it has to do with politics, perhaps it is pornographic images of children, perhaps it is depictions of violence, but at some point EVERYONE says enough). Now, this would no doubt be a very lively and heated debate, but it could also go on indefinitely without EVER addressing the true evils of Nazism.


215 posted on 08/31/2009 5:00:14 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
They have been delighted to spend the past century debating evolution, because while this debate has gone on they have MURDERED ONE BILLION HUMAN BEINGS all while being able to hide behind the facade of science. The average person has NO CLUE the amount of deadly destruction that Darwinism has brought. And the Darwinists have been able to do this because they know that deep down most people DO NOT believe that the Universe was created in six 24 hour days. The Darwinists also know that most people DO believe in God and DO believe that He created the Universe, so they simply shift the debate to an argument about time, biology and geology. The result, they make it appear that most people agree with them, when the reality is that most people haven’t even got a clue about their real agenda.

In other words, your anti-Darwinism isn't based on a defense of the Word of G-d at all but on philosophy. Again, my generalization of Catholics and other liturgical chr*stians holds good.

I wonder how many people believe J*sus was conceived without a father and came out of his mother's side in order to prevent tearing her hymen? For some reason that seems terribly important to people who don't care whether or not the Word spoken by G-d is absolutely true.

217 posted on 08/31/2009 5:34:52 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ('Arammi 'oved 'Avi vayered Mitzraymah vayagor sham bimtei me`at; vayhi-sham legoy gadol `atzum varav)
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To: wagglebee; Zionist Conspirator; betty boop; metmom
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Darwinism is not now nor has it ever been about whether or not mankind descended from tadpoles.

Truly, the theory of evolution has become the sword of many political agendas. And the bodies from atheist regimes which embraced the theory for their own end have stacked high.

Since Zionist Conspirator has centered on the inerrancy of Scripture – to which I hold – I offer here my own testimony:

The Scriptures are the inerrant words of God. Period. But the words of God must be Spiritually discerned.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. – I Corinthians 2:14

I am neither an Old Earth Creationist nor a Young Earth Creationist. Nor do I lean to the Gosse Omphalus Hypothesis which says that the universe only looks old, it could have been created last Thursday.

I see no conflict at all in the revelations of God the Father in (a) Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, (b) the indwelling Holy Spirit (c) Scriptures and (d) Creation, both spiritual and physical.

In sum, I aver that seven equivalent earth days from the inception space/time coordinates (big bang) is equal to roughly fifteen billion years from our space/time coordinates on earth. For more on this point, Scriptures vis-à-vis Inflationary Theory and Relativity see Age of the Universe by Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder.

IMHO, at the root of the theological differences over Creation Week we often find Romans 5:12–14 and I Corinthians 15:42–48 - one side saying that Adam was the first mortal man (YEC) and the other saying that Adam was the first ensouled man (OEC.)

But I also have no “dog” in that dispute because I see Adam as created in the spiritual realm, the first man to become a “living soul” (Genesis 2) and I do not see him becoming earth bound until he was banished to mortality at the end of Genesis 3.

In other words, I assert that the first three chapters of Scripture deal with the creation not only of the physical realm but the spiritual as well (emphasis mine:)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

Therefore I see no conflict with the creation of plant life (day 3) – before the creation of the solar system (day 4.) And as further Scriptural evidence I point to these:

The tree of life is in the center of Eden (Gen 2:9) and Paradise (Rev 2:7).

God created the plants and herbs before they were in the earth (Gen 2:4-5)

The intersection or “types” in the physical realm and spiritual realm: Temple, Ark, Tabernacle, Eden/Paradise.

Furthermore, whereas many see Genesis 1 as a historical record only, the leaning I have in the Spirit is that it is prophecy as well.

My understanding of the time appointed to Adamic men is very similar to the Jewish understanding and that of the early Christians - namely, that Adamic man (after he was banished to mortality in Genesis 3) - is appointed 7,000 years (corresponding to Creation week) the last 1,000 years being the Sabbath reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20.)

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

That is a hidden Spiritual Truth behind these verses:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4 (a Psalm the Jews attribute to Moses)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Pet 3:8

It is further shown in this verse and its fulfillment (emphasis mine):

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Gen 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

That is also the Jewish interpretation (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) of Psalms 90:4

It was also the early Christian understanding. This, from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5:

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic Enoch:

And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that (the first seven) revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

Following this prophetic timetable envisioned by these Jews and early Christians, Adamic man has little time before the end will come and Christ’s 1,000 reign on earth begins. Using Christian dating, it could be any day now. Using Jewish dating, we have about 240 years to go. This is Jewish year 5769 from Adam’s first moment on earth. The difference is a dispute over the amount of time the Jews were exiled in Babylon: The Jewish Calendar’s 240 missing years

Returning to Scripture and evolution, God specifically mentions things He specially created – and He also leaves the door open to evolution theory here:

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. – Genesis 1:20

Thus I perceive biological life as a mixture of things specially created by God and mechanisms created by God whereby biological life adapts or evolves.

The Intelligent Design hypothesis is appealing to me and credible on the face. It simply states that “certain features of the universe and life are best explained by intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.” And because animals are known to choose their mates, it is obvious that “certain features” are best explained by those choices.

I find most of the ID disputes to be theological, ideological or political – rarely on the merits on the hypothesis which I consider to be more of an observation.

My main dispute with evolution theory is the improper use of the word and concept of “random” when the correct word and concept is “unpredictable.” Stochastic methods apply to either. But a person cannot say something is random in the system when he does not know what the system “is” – and science does not know – and can never know – the full dimensionality of space/time.

So the use of the word “random” overstates what is known and knowable by the scientific method.

I do however have a very strong objection to those scientists like Dawkins, Pinker, Singer and Lewontin who misappropriate the theory of evolution to proliferate anti-Christ and anti-God sentiment under the color of science.

The Christian or Jew looks at the depth and height of the physical creation – and sees a revelation of the Creator whereas others see a different context (e.g. Buddhism) or no context at all (atheism/agnosticism.)

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

I, for instance, see the unreasonable effectiveness of math (Wigner) as God's copyright notice on the cosmos.

Nevertheless, no matter what a Christian may see when he looks at Scriptures and the physical Creation, the bottom line is: to God be the glory!

Man is not the measure of God.

237 posted on 08/31/2009 8:20:50 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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