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To: marshmallow; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
In time-honored FR religion forum tradition of course, that will be conveniently extrapolated, run with and stretched to the point where we can make a little mischief regarding the overall mission of the Church.

Who needs to extrapolate, run with or stretch it, when St. Ignatius said it so well:

"Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church."

What St. Ignatius actually says to the Smyrneans is "wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." It's not the presence of the Bishop that makes the Church, but the presence of Christ, the "Bishop of all" (Magnesians 2:3). Christ is present in many ways. Certainly He is pre-eminently present in His Mysteries, to which every priesthood is ordered and for which reason no-one is ordained to any ministry higher than that of Bishop.

-- from the April 2009 article Getting grumpy about primacy.

If the Bishop is empowered to make Christ present in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist is presented at any/every Mass, then the shortened misquote "Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church" is IMO valid.
232 posted on 08/27/2009 7:32:59 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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To: Alex Murphy; HarleyD
Mmmmmmmmm............a valiant effort, Alex but way off base.

I'm glad you're reading St. Igantius. Unfortunately, it's relevance to Harley's original post and my response is nil. Harley suggested that on the basis of the funeral given to Teddy we could deduce something about the abortion stance of the entire Church, right Harley?

St. Ignatius, on the other hand, is saying that the bishop, a bishop, any bishop is the pastoral representative of the Church and carries the authority of the Church with him. Note that he is not saying that the work or teaching of a particular bishop will necessarily be reflective of the official teaching or dogma of the Church. For instance there have been occasions throughout Church history where bishops taught heresy or apostatized. It's still happening today.

Is it necessary to say that this does not mean that the Church as a whole embraced heresy? Jesus' promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church does not apply to individual bishops. St. Ignatius knew this. Read a little further in his writings. You'll see that he's emphasizing the authority and responsibility of bishops for they stand in persona Christi.

Thus, simply because a bishop presides or is present at Teddy Kennedy's funeral, it does not mean that the Catholic Church endorses the life of Teddy. It means that the funeral is Catholic, the rites are Catholic and the sacraments of the Church are dispensed because the bishop or his representative is present (see St. Ignatius) but it is not it's not an invitation from the universal Church to imitate Teddy. He would need to be canonized for that to apply and I don't see that happening.

Keep up the reading.

233 posted on 08/27/2009 8:06:54 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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