Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: annalex; Mr Rogers; stfassisi
I believe that the Catholic Church furnished sufficient proof that the Incarnation of Christ, His Resurrection and Ascention into heaven, are historical facts

I respect your belief but no one has furnished sufficient proof that they are historical facts. I wish someone did, then we wouldn't have to believe; we would know.

Without getting into theological arguments over details, Leo XIII also teaches, or at least, doesn't seem to dispute that human error exists in the scripture

That's not at all what he is saying in the passage you chose to share with us.

There are both errors of interpretation and errors of transmission, such as loss of original copies, mistranslations, interpolations, and such.

And some of them are not even errors but rather different beliefs held by many early Christians.

22Most+Holy+Theotokos%2C+save+us...

I have never heard this in a Slavonic liturgy. Maybe the Greeks do this, and if they do then it is nothing short of idolatry.

The Slavonic liturgy relating to the Lord's Entrance (Vkhod Gospoden') the choir sings Молитвами Богородицы, Спасе спаси нас or Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us, which is completely different from the idolatrous Theotokos "save" us.

If I had heard the version you mention, I would have walked out of the church convinced that I was in a wrong church. In all my years as a believer, I never once prayed to her, let alone believe tha6t she can save anyone.

My prayers were always to God and God alone, either the Father or the Son, but never to the Holy Spirit simply because I never heard a prayer to the Holy Spirit, except when the priest, in silence (at least in the Athonite typikon), invokes the epiklesis. But that's another Triniatrian topic...

Both the doctrines and the scripture are derived from the "faith once delivered to the saints".

The doctrine was not delivered to the saints, Alex. None of the disciples who bothered to write (assuming it was them who wrote), St. Paul came the closests to some sort of doctrine, but his Triniarianism is not even close and his Mariology is nonexistenet.

The fact is that the Church struggled for three centuries to define what she believed in, to even establish the 'pillars of faith.'

The Church has had 2,000 years to get the "story straight," and it's a sophisticated story, but the facts don't necessarily agree with it. And most people never dig that deep anyway.

Also, the scripture came way before the doctrine and the scripture came in all shapes an sizes and versions.

Thanks, that's what Pius XII believes also, and all of us with him

The Latin Church has yet to acknowledge that Mary died, Alex. If she is another Eve ontologically speaking, and she never sinned (unlike Eve), then she was not mortal just as Eve would not have been mortal had she never sinned.

Which poses a problem: is only God immortal or did he create other gods who then fell and became mortal? Was Adam a god until he sinned? Or, is immortality not exclusively a divine attribute?

[Mary was also saved by her Son, for God is her Savior (Luke 1: 47) as well] No kidding. The Orthodox teach that? Are you Catholic now?

Why, pray tell, did Mary NEED a Savior any more than Eve did before she sinned? Remember, Mary was ontologically not fallen like the rest of us and, having never sinned, why did she need a Savior?

72 posted on 08/24/2009 8:53:52 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies ]


To: kosta50; Mr Rogers; stfassisi
no one has furnished sufficient proof that they are historical facts

The Church has the proof as she is the witness. The faith is required to believe the witness, as with any historical fact.

in the passage you chose to share with us

No, not in the passage, because I did not choose the passage to illustrate that particular point. The theology is that human errors exist, both of transmission and understanding.

I have never heard this in a Slavonic liturgy

Then why didn't you google in slavonic? You would have found this beautiful Penitential Canon

Voice 6. Song 1

As if over dry land walked Israel, over the abyss on foot, seeing the pursuer the Pharao drown, the victorious song singing, proclaiming.

Most Holy Mother of God, save us.

All my filthy life I decry, as well as the multitude of my unmeasurable evils: that I should confess to you o Pure I do not comprehend and I am in fear: yet help me, Ruler [fem].

Most Holy Mother of God, save us.

Where do I start to speak of my deceitful and my fierce faults, as I am in torment; woe me that I will be lost; but o Ruler [fem], before the end, grant me.

Glory: Of the hour of by death and of the Frightful Judgement always I am mindful, o Most Chaste, as I am seduced by evel habit so fiercely: yet, help me.

As now, The burner of the Righteous, as he sees me lacking divine goodness, as I further depart and am separated from God, hastes to swallow me: o Ruler [fem] forestall.

...

My point is, of course, not to criticize Orthodox expression of Marian devotions, but to explain that the unique association of the Mother of God with the Redeemer is known to the Eastern Church as well.

The doctrine was not delivered to the saints

Faith was delivered. The doctrine, indeed has to be developed, as Christ promised it will be, and over time it has been developed.

The scripture came before the developed doctrine of the Councils, and simultaneously with oral teaching that contained the doctrinal essentials, as the scripture itself tells us. This is why the doctrine cannot be said to derive from the scripture alone. The scripture is, of course, "useful" or "profitable" for that, and immensely so, but it is not the sole source of doctrine. Especially, when the docrtine in question deals with the events outside of the scope of canonical scripture.

The Latin Church has yet to acknowledge that Mary died The Church refers to the same tradition the Eastern Churches do. That tradition speaks of the dormition, the "falling asleep", and of assumption into heaven. This can barely be called death, but we never teach that it wasn't either. I don't think any further clarification of the process by which Our Lady ended her natural life and was assumed into Heaven is necessary.

Definitely, neither Adam, or Eve, or Our Lady were divine even in intention.

Mary was ontologically not fallen like the rest of us and, having never sinned, why did she need a Savior?

This is a naive question I sometime face coming from Protestant prooftexters. The answer is, of course, that she needed (and indeed had) her Savior precicely in order to keep her free from sin.

74 posted on 08/25/2009 9:46:13 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson