“Well, Scripture itself says that it is not understandable without interpretation by the Church.”
Really? Guess I missed that part.
The Catechism is a collection of beliefs, not interpretation of scripture.
The Purgatory discussion took place perhaps 3 weeks ago. I pointed out the footnote on 1 Cor 3 says, “The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.”
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm#foot8
Also, in the interest of honesty, I pointed out the footnote doesn’t PRECLUDE a purgatorical interpretation, but it does make it clear that wasn’t the author’s primary objective.
I was told both the NAB & its footnotes were terrible, and to use the Catechism instead.
In the end, I believe there is simply an irreconcilable disagreement between Protestants and Catholics on the role of scripture. I find the Catholic view - that the church defines beliefs and uses the Bible and other sources to support them - deeply sad. Of course, Catholics regret my insistence on interpreting scripture.
Although, oddly enough, Augustine wrote several books on interpreting scripture:
“...After detailing with much care and minuteness the various qualities of an orator, he recommends the authors of the Holy Scriptures as the best models of eloquence, far excelling all others in the combination of eloquence with wisdom. He points out that perspicuity is the most essential quality of style, and ought to be cultivated with especial care by the teacher, as it is the main requisite for instruction, although other qualities are required for delighting and persuading the hearer. All these gifts are to be sought in earnest prayer from God, though we are not to forget to be zealous and diligent in study...that they all have the same end in view, to bring home the truth to the hearer, so that he may understand it, hear it with gladness, and practice it in his life.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/augustine/doctrine.iii.html
“39. When, however, a meaning is evolved of such a kind that what is doubtful in it cannot be cleared up by indubitable evidence from Scripture, it remains for us to make it clear by the evidence of reason. But this is a dangerous practice. For it is far safer to walk by the light of Holy Scripture; so that when we wish to examine the passages that are obscured by metaphorical expressions, we may either obtain a meaning about which there is no controversy, or if a controversy arises, may settle it by the application of testimonies sought out in every portion of the same Scripture.”
***“Well, Scripture itself says that it is not understandable without interpretation by the Church.”
Really? Guess I missed that part.***
I will quote from the front page of Scripture Catholic.com:
Because the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the divinely-revealed, written Word of God, Catholics venerate the Scriptures as they venerate the Lord’s body. But Catholics do not believe that God has given us His divine Revelation in Christ exclusively through Scripture. Catholics also believe that God’s Revelation comes to us through the Apostolic Tradition and teaching authority of the Church.
What Church? Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus’ flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).
***The Catechism is a collection of beliefs, not interpretation of scripture.***
The Catechism is an indepth explanation of the Faith, as oppposed to the summaries of the Creeds. The Catechism has very good explanations of Scripture as it goes through the entire explanation.
***The Purgatory discussion took place perhaps 3 weeks ago. I pointed out the footnote on 1 Cor 3 says, “The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.”***
The best explanation in the Canon of Scripture is in 2 Maccabees; you must remember that the Church began long before any NT writings existed. Doctrines and the Faith were rigourously taught by Jesus during His Mission. But the Apostles, after the death, Resurrection, Ascension and then Pentecost had only the Septuagint and the oral Tradition. No NT Scripture. As the writings began (hundreds of book over the next 2 centuries), they reflected the biases of the authors and eventually the Church was forced to have a Canon of Scripture.
Scripture arose partially in tandem with, but usually following the development of the Church. Many writings were considered Scripture up until that final Council and then were set aside. Much doctrine arose from those writings that are not now considered Scripture. Yet the Church kept them and built upon them. Many sayings of Jesus were not contained within current Scripture, yet these are as valid as those contained in the Bible.
The Church has the authority and the responsibility to formulate doctrine and to promulgate the Faith. Not Luther’s any milkmaid in personal interpretation. We must remember that it is the Church that is the foundation and pillar of Truth, and not even Scripture itself.
“”Although, oddly enough, Augustine wrote several books on interpreting scripture””
Yes,and Blessed Augustine adhered to authority of the Church regarding scripture,dear brother. Nice try though!
From Saint Augustine...
“If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospels, let him be anathema.”- Augustine “Contra litteras Petiliana”, (Against the Letters of Petiliana) Bk.3, ch.6
“Let us not hear, this I say, this you say; but thus says the Lord. Surely it is the books of the Lord on whose authority we both agree and which we both believe. There let us seek the Church, there let us discuss our case.” .... “Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, with the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”-Augustine (”De unitate ecclesiae”, [on the Unity of the Church]3)
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the AUTHORITY of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
Augustine-Against the Letter of Mani 5,6, 397 A.D.