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To: PugetSoundSoldier
God gives us His grace and His Holy Spirit directly, not through the church

The scripture shows that the Holy Spirit was givien initally to the apostles and then they were told to teach and baptize others. The distinction was there from the very beginning:

And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning. (John 15:27)

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20)

24 As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning, abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting. 26 These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you. 27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him (1 John 2)

Here, the charism of teaching, the grace of confession, and the grace of the holy Orders are expressly given the nascent Church and through her to the rest of the believers.

718 posted on 09/10/2009 9:37:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; PugetSoundSoldier

Please read a bit closer...

“19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” 24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.” - John 20

Notice, this involved disciples, not Apostles. In fact, one of the Twelve wasn’t even there at the time. So no, the Holy Spirit was not given to Apostles, who pass Him on like a loaf of bread through Apostolic Succession.

Jesus, after all, told Nicodemus, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Good luck making God the Holy Spirit wait for a priest’s approval before entering a man!

“2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.”

“23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God... 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.”

” 29Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

” 14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” - came after baptism, following the laying of of hands

“42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47”Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” - BEFORE baptism and without laying on of hands

You can read more if you wish...it is in the New Testament. The Holy Spirit is God, and He goes to those who believe - sometimes before, sometimes after baptism. After all, it seems He didn’t enter the DISCIPLES when Jesus breathed on them, but a short time later.

But consistently, the presence of the Holy Spirit is considered the mark of a Christian. And God is sovereign - He moves in His timing.

Also, note that the early church had no Priests. The closest I can see is: “...because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Priests offer sacrifices, and Paul was giving a “sacrifice” of the Gentiles...and in that sense, performing a “priestly service”.

But as Hebrews 10 makes clear:

“11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

The only Priest in Christianity is Jesus.


719 posted on 09/11/2009 7:53:34 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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