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To: annalex
Canon 841 merely says that the Muslims are "included" in "the plan of salvation".

841 in its entirety:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Salvation, according to the Catechism, includes those who acknowledge God, and that is all that is needed to reach Heaven. It does not say that they must accept Jesus or the Church.

Canon 846 explains that whenever one is saved -- and we don't know who is and who isn't -- he is saved as a member of the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church.

Assuming this is correct, then all Protestants who have given their lives to Jesus are part of the Catholic Church, correct?

if a Protestant refuses to his last breath to enter it, he cannot be saved,

Oops. Only if the Protestant becomes Catholic apparently. Which contradicts the statement you just made:

Canon 846 explains that whenever one is saved -- and we don't know who is and who isn't

Apparently, if you die a Protestant the Catechism states you are not saved. According to your own words. You must accept the Catholic Church as supreme or you will not be saved.

Again, this is the biggest issue I believe most Protestants have with the Catholic Church: it is now the sole arbiter of who shall be saved and who is condemned, by virtue of controlling who is a Catholic. And most Catholics refuse to honestly admit this position, trying to shade it in ecumenical terms.

Fundamentally, non-Catholic believers in Jesus are not saved; believers in God but not Jesus (even if taught and aware of Jesus and the Bible) are saved. And the Pope and Church Heirarchy have become the gatekeepers to salvation and Heaven.

564 posted on 09/01/2009 2:37:02 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
"Plan of salvation" is not assured salvation. It is a plan, but not "all that is needed". Even nonbelievers are in the plan (836). You read one thing and presume another regarding 841. If oen is called, one is in the plan, and everyone is called. The issue is, who responds to the call properly.

then all Protestants who have given their lives to Jesus are part of the Catholic Church, correct?

No, not correct. If someone gives his life to Jesus, he would probably be a brother in a Catholic monastery or a priest. He certainly would not be busy protesting His Church.

You must accept the Catholic Church as supreme or you will not be saved.

As One Holy Catholic and Apostolic, as per the Nicene Creed. Correct, that is necessary for salvation. However, that does not contradict that we don't know who is not saved (*), because we don't know if they enter the Catholic Church at the hour of their death, if not sooner. It is our most fervent prayer that they all do: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us (me and you) sinners now and at the hour of our death"; "O Lord Jesus, save us (me and you) from the fires of Hell, bring all souls to heaven, especially those (you) who is in most need of Thy mercy".

controlling who is a Catholic

The Church controls who is visibly Catholic, that is, who is visibly partaking of her sacraments. The Chruch does not and cannot control who is internally Catholic, that is, has a desire to be Catholic but is prevented from it by some circumstances.

And most Catholics refuse to honestly admit this position, trying to shade it in ecumenical terms

Most Catholics are themselves confused by the false ecumenism that infected the Church following the Second Vatican Council. But you must agree that it is not an easy to grasp doctrine even if it were taught properly. I don't think very many Catholics are trying to deceive you on purpose. I sure don't.

----

(*) We do know that the canonized saints are saved, but we don't know who is saved outrside of that small circle of people, and who is not saved we never know for sure. We don't have a list of reprobates in the same sense as we have a list of canonized saints.

567 posted on 09/01/2009 3:01:50 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier; annalex
841 in its entirety: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham...Salvation, according to the Catechism, includes those who acknowledge God, and that is all that is needed to reach Heaven. It does not say that they must accept Jesus or the Church.
580 posted on 09/01/2009 8:24:16 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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