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To: 1010RD
1. Mary never needed to participate in the Atonement or Grace of Christ.

No, that is completely wrong. Christ is her Savior as well as yours and mine (Lk 1:47). The difference is that Christ saved her by way or preventing her from committing a sin, whereas He saved me and you by atoning the sins we have committed. Nor is that preventive atonement of Mary uniquely applicable to Mary. We, too, pray "Lord, forgive me my sin ___ and with your help I will not sin again". Compare 1 Pe. 1:10.

2. This is a unique human experience outside of Christ Himself in all human existence.

Immaculate conception of Mary is unique. The state of grace and sinlessness is not unique. The Church never pronounced that absolutely every one beside Mary and Jesus has committed a personal sin. For one thing, children before the age of reason and mentally ill are not capable of sinning. Further, the Scripture from time to time refers to people in a way that suggests sinlessness. Noah, for example, is described as "perfect in every way". The popular belief is that St. John the Baptist never sinned; the Church never discouraged this belief. Anticipating your response, the passage in Romans 3, where "all have sinned" cannot be read as literal condemnation of everyone, because of its context: it also says that all are quick to murder, no one seeks God, etc., which is a broad characterization allowing for exceptions. Also, that passage is a quote from Psalm 13 (KJV 14; it omits a good portion of verse 3, but St. Paul quotes it), but both the end of that psalm and the next psalm also speak of righteousness.

3. Joseph, who died before Christ's ministry began (I've come to agree with this belief), died a failed Jew (no off-spring, no consummated marriage) and outside of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

The Church venerates St. Joseph as a major saint, patron of working men, and names churches after him, -- I go to a St. Joseph Church myself. Very far from "failed Jew". All righteous Jews were saved by Christ. The icon of the Resurrection (also known as Descent to Hades or Descent to Limbo) shows Jesus rescuing those who had died before him, starting with Adam:

It is also believed (not dogmatically, but rather universally) that St. Joseph had been married before, had children, and his wife died. He then married Mary, a dedicated temple virgin, in order to take care of her as she could no longer serve at the temple, having reached maturity. This explains the references to "brothers of the Lord" in the scripture, as well as Mary's apparent intention not to "know man" (Lk 1:34). See The Protoevangelium of James, chapters 7-9:

7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified thy name in all generations. In thee, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.

8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.


534 posted on 08/31/2009 9:02:58 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Thanks for your detailed responses. In reverse order, your #3 is utterly fascinating. I'd never heard or read The Protoevangelium of James. I also read your and the other comments from that thread.

I agree completely regarding children before the age of reason and the mentally ill. Noah is an interesting example as I would argue he was perfect in his use of the Law, that is he used the atonement as understood and designed for Israel. I don't really think Moses was introducing new commandments, just reiterating the originals (although Passover was new and Prophets of God can introduce new doctrine per God).

You flatter me by anticipating a reply (Romans 3) that I never intended. I really am interested in learning your beliefs. Even though we may not agree, my motive is curiosity and understanding. It is the height of intellectual immaturity to demand that we must agree to be friends or to discuss any idea. Please believe me when I say that I am not interested in disputing your beliefs, just understanding them. My questions, if probing, are just that and not argumentative. What I find most interesting are the facts you find and use to reinforce your beliefs in a logical way. It is delightful.

I do like your #1 and agree that we can work to not sin again with the help of Christ. Would you elaborate on how Christ prevented Mary from sinning after his birth?

540 posted on 08/31/2009 6:38:51 PM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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