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To: 1010RD; annalex; PugetSoundSoldier
When you say culturally influenced belief, which culture are you referring to?

The Jewish culture, of course, but also the early Christian culture as well, especially Pauline morality regarding virginity.

Among Jews sex between husband and wife is normal and good and not having sex would be a cause for divorce

Indeed, but not with what has been set aside for God. The idea that what is God's is untouchable is very much part of the Jewish culture (Holy of Holies, the Ark of Covenant, which when touched kills an Israeli soldier). Secondly, Mary's purpose was fulfilled; anything else would be second fiddle in the eyes of the Church.  The mother of God cannot now be also the mother of fallen humans, spiritually or physically. Her purpose would otherwise be lost and made meaningless.

We don't think like the Jews and the early Christians did. We don't stone our misbehaving children, or cheating spouses to death. Yet in the ancient world, that was culturally acceptable and a part of the justice system. We can't apply modern social standards in 21st century America and say it's silly. 

Jewish approach to holiness was also anything resembling ours. They couldn't even pronounce sacred names. Earliest Christian manuscripts never spell out God or Christ or other sacred names but always use ligatures. The reverence of the ancients cannot even be fathomed by modern-day Christians.

Naturally, Mariology evolved along with the rest of the Church beliefs, and in order for that to take place a cultural environment that made it possible had to exist. Obviously, it would not have happened in the 21st century America. But in those days such a culture did exist, no one objected to it.

528 posted on 08/30/2009 6:45:33 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: kosta50; annalex; PugetSoundSoldier
Q: When you say culturally influenced belief, which culture are you referring to?

A: The Jewish culture, of course, but also the early Christian culture as well, especially Pauline morality regarding virginity.

Is there a strong teaching in Judaism in favor of permanent virginity as an achievement? Marriage was the highest achievement for both men and women and an unmarried man of thirty would be unusual in Jewish culture. The culture would strongly discourage a never-married man from remaining in that state along with the pressure to bear children, no? I don't see the Jewish connection unless you are referring to the concept of Korban. This though refers to the sacrifice of male animals (a symbol of the Christ yet to come) and later the setting apart of a son for permanent temple service - e.g. Samuel.

The manipulative practice of Korban is criticized by Jesus. I don't see a Jewish tradition of setting aside a woman as Korban. Can you expound on the Jewish connection further?

By early Christian culture (which incidentally is Christianized Jewish culture) you are wholly referring to Paul's teachings in 1 Corinthians 7, correct? We don't find any veneration of Mary as sinless or Immaculate in the NT. She is venerated as a chosen vessel (but, to that point she was observant as a Jew only), but rarely mentioned afterward in any important capacity for the early church, using the NT as the historical record. If Paul is the example of abstention from sex aren't his writings duplicitous on the subject, that is does post marital chastity or perpetual human virginity connote any real positive spiritual effect? That is does your sexual status (within a lawful and God-recognized marriage) have any affect on your salvation?

My thinking is that Paul's discourse is at best contradictory, neither proposing one or the other state as best, but predicating your choice on personal preference within the bounds the Lord has set for marriage. I would like to understand this better, especially in the face of secular attacks on Christian morality which I presume we all agree on; i.e. sex within legal, lawful, God-approved marriage is good, outside that context it is bad. Mary creates a subtext for the attack by making celibacy, post marriage superior to sex within marriage.

Also, I am interested to know if believing in Mary as stated in either the Orthodox or Catholic traditions is considered a saving doctrine, that is if I don't believe in Mary as described am I still eligible for Heaven?

532 posted on 08/31/2009 4:54:45 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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