***That is why we consider the Catholic (including Orthodox) Churches to be apart from this statement. They are not given absolutely authority. The Pope, for instance, is considered the steward; he does not have absolutely authority.
Yet the Pope can speak ex cathedra where his word is literally law, and cannot be questioned. No absolute authority there! And that is one of the biggest contentions between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches - the absolute infallibility of the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra.***
List for me the infallible pronouncements, if you would, please.
***In this case, I believe the Protestant and Orthodox churches get it right - NO MAN has authority to speak without error, without question. It’s not Biblical, and it has led - and will lead again - to evil being ensconced in the Church.***
If the Holy Spirit were not involved, then yes, I’d agree.
***Some of those in Germany in the Church were corrupt; they were rooted out.
And the other parts of Catholicism? Spain, Italy, France, all were blameless and pure? Just those evil Germans? The selling of indulgences, the purchase of bishoprics, the graft and corruption certainly didn’t stem from Rome... Wait, isn’t a major part of this thread how bishops must be approved by other bishops of their higher ups (like cardinals, or the Pope)?
To try to insinuate that the Vatican was blissfully unaware of hundreds of years of corruption is simply not a tenable position.***
There is a difference between generalized corruption and specific corruption. If a postal clerk in Bozeman is corrupt, is the Postmaster General expected to be immediately aware of that corruption? The PG is responsible, yet he may not be ever made aware.
***Did Luther contribute to it? Certainly, he did. But, given the damage that he has caused to Christianity, was it worth the evil he did?
In fact, I think it is the arrogance and willful unrepentance of the Catholic Church that has continued hundreds of years of evil. Look at the loathing of your own Church to own up to its complicity in the sexual abuse of thousands of children. ***
You may wish to take a look at the timing of the various events. Luther was around for 450 years before this horrific affair.
***My own church - the very place I worship - had a pastor 10 years ago who was caught in adultery. Rather than shuffle him off to another church to offend again, he was called out, confronted (as we are told to do in Acts), stripped of his commission (defrocked), and until he completed a restoration process was barred from being a member of any church in our denomination. ***
Very responsible. You guys are to be commended if indeed the restoration process was of utility. Was it?
***That’s how you deal with evil; you don’t simply say “it was over there” and go about your merry, hypocritical ways... ***
Agree.
***But what do I know, I’m just an illegitimate Christian, now apparently a bastard child of evil, too!***
By what inference do you not infer that the consequences of Luther’s actions were evil?
The mere fact your faith allows a man to make such statements is the error, the sin. In essence, it states that a man may speak as God Himself. Whether or not the power is executed is irrelevant; the granting of that power is what is simply and unequivocally wrong and non-Biblical.
There is a difference between generalized corruption and specific corruption. If a postal clerk in Bozeman is corrupt, is the Postmaster General expected to be immediately aware of that corruption? The PG is responsible, yet he may not be ever made aware.
So your contention is that the Pope or the cardinals were unaware of the grave sins of the Church, perpetrated for hundreds of years in their name? You seriously believe that?
You may wish to take a look at the timing of the various events. Luther was around for 450 years before this horrific affair.
This is just the latest example which had an attempted whitewash; it was only because of broad media coverage that the Church could not hide this latest round of sin by its own. And The coverups that went on for decades show the complicity involved.
A humble, Christ-loving and Christ-following institution would beg for forgiveness from those it offended, make public amends, and go forth. The Catholic Church has done little and only by being dragged to do so. The belief of infallibility in the Church - the organization - is the cause of this most un-Christian behavior.
Very responsible. You guys are to be commended if indeed the restoration process was of utility. Was it?
Yes, his family wasn't torn apart, his relationship with his wife was restored, and he is now a welcomed, loving member of a local congregation, and a counselor and minister at a local funeral home.
By what inference do you not infer that the consequences of Luther’s actions were evil?
By the fact we are called as Christians to hold each other accountable, and that Luther was calling out the Church, to hold it accountable to Christ.
By what inference do you conclude the consequences of his actions were evil (and, by extension, each and every Protestant being evil)?
You show the typical Catholic Church position (which, unfortunately, my relatives who are ordained in your faith have a tendency towards): an arrogance and belief in the infallible nature of your Church, and as a result an inability to acknowledge the evil and destruction perpetrated by those within - and retained therein, even after their actions were known - the very organization you worship.
No organization or man is above Jesus; none are blameless or infallible. If only you would open your eyes and see the truth that your Orthodox and Protestant brothers proclaim!