annalex,
Thank you for your detailed post. I appreciate the time
you took as a favor to me.
I certainly don’t mean any of my posts as a criticism
of “the way” other churches practice their faith. I am,
as I’ve mentioned, simply doing a study for my own
benefit and spiritual walk.
I will reflect back to you where I am coming from when
I read you points...
“Veneration of saints is by its very nature something that required time to develop, and therefore is not int he scope of the inspired scripture.”
As a believer, I am open to the concept of things the
Apostles passed on to the Church that are not recorded
in Scripture. Clearly, logic would say that many things
fell into that category.
Where I run into difficulty is the expansion of those
things over the centuries. Your sentence above falls
into the category of things that “took time to develop”.
If it was an important truth that should be a major
doctrine, it should have been there from the beginning.
Now on to your other points.
“However, we do have the commandment to love one another, pray for one another, and to be light to one another, and that is what veneration of saints is all about.”
We do have the command to love one another. I can accept
that we can apply that to departed Christians. Christians
are to be a light, sure. Perhaps you are applying this in
the sense of departed saints being a light to us? OK, I
can accept that. These two points do not, in my mind, lead
to your conclusion that veneration is about those two things. Perhaps you might want to elaborate?
What I do not see is anything from Scripture or EARLY
writings of the Church that shows me the Church got
this directly from the Apostles. And, of course, if
you have such citations, I would very much like to
see them.
“Specifically about the Blessed Virgin Mary, we have an assurance that “all generations will call her blessed” (Lk 1),”
Absolutely. And of course, there are many ways to call
her blessed that don’t involve talking directly to her.
I find nothing that supports the concept that departed
Christians can hear whatever someone says to them.
“she leads the Church in her battle with Satan (Rev. 12)”
Here, I would not agree. I will post some work from a
friend of mine (a teacher at seminary) who summarizes
the issues well...
“In view of Old Testament imagery (cf. Isa. 54:1–6; Jer. 3:20; Ezek. 16:8–14; Hos. 2:19–20) and the following reasons, the “woman” seems to symbolize the nation of Israel.395 She wears a crown (Gr. stephanos) with the sun, moon, and stars, as God pictured Israel in one of the nation’s early symbolic representations (Gen. 37:9–11; cf. Isa. 26:17–18; 60:1–3, 20). There are many figurative references to Israel as a travailing woman in the Old Testament (Is. 26:17–18; 66:7–9; Jer. 4:31; 13:21; Mic. 4:10; 5:3). She eventually gave birth to Christ (v. 5). In Genesis 37:9–10, the sun corresponds to Jacob, the moon to Rachel, and the 12 stars to Israel’s 12 sons (cf. 7:5–8; 21:12).”
“and she is given us as our mother (Jn 19)”
I believe Christ gave Mary to the disciple here - not
to us.
“and advocate before Christ (Lk 2:35).”
Mary may fulfill the role of advocate, but this passage
does not say she does.
“An instance of such veneration is recorded in the Scripture (Lk 11:27).”
Sort of. Certainly the voice that cried out honored Mary
in fulfilling the prophecy of Luke 1. Just as we should do.
I would add that Mary was actually there at the time to
hear it.
“We know much more about veneration of Mary from the Gospels”
Not sure we know much at all.
“that we do about, for example, how to conduct marriage or funeral ceremonies, or do confessions, or even baptisms.”
True enough, which is why I wouldn’t place the actual words
and actions of these things as doctrines - except the form
of the actual baptism.
Again, thanks.
The general principles rooted in the love and mutual prayer are major scriptural doctrines. In addition, we have example of Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses in the Transfiguration. We also have people picking up articles of clothing of the Apostles apparently as relics. However, the age of martyrdom was just beginning, and therefore we don't have veneration of saints spelled out in the Acts. The foundation of it is there, but the martyrs themselves came later with the persecutions.
These two points do not, in my mind, lead to your conclusion that veneration is about those two things
To venerate a saint is to love him, and receive his love for you. It often takes a form of soliciting his prayer; as a righteous person his prayer "accomplishes much" (James 5:16). Another aspect of venerating a saint is to take his example, that is, allow him to be a light to you. They are depicted with light around their heads for a reason...
Regarding patristic sources for praying to saints, consider The Intercession of the Saints
I find nothing that supports the concept that departed Christians can hear whatever someone says to them.
They are described as a "cloud of witnesses" in Heb. 12:1 and in several places in Revelation angels bring their prayers to God. So I feel conmfortable assuming that since the scripture teaches that they observe us and pray for us, then they also hear us. Becides, Christ did converse with Moses and Elijah, did He not?
the “woman” seems to symbolize the nation of Israel
I don't know how anyone can state that categorically when she is specifically described as mother of Christ, and it is her seed that will crucsh Satan according to Genesis 3:15. If we are to take scripture seriouslty, we should not dismiss scripture so easily when it does not suit the Protestant tradition. It is, indeed, true that in the person of Mary we have the high point and utmost accomplishment of the Jewish race, so Israel of the Hebrew scripture does typify Mary.
Christ gave Mary to the disciple here - not to us.
Well, you are entitled to your interpretation and we Catholics are entitled to ours. Note, however, that the last words of Christ are all of monumental significance to us, and your interpretation would insert an economic arrangement for the aging mother in the middle of the sublime moment when we all receive redemption. Note the language, too: the Disciple took her "eis ta idia", "with his own", that is with other disciples.
Mary may fulfill the role of advocate, but [Lk 2:35] does not say she does.
It says, most accurately, that thoughts of many will be revealed by Mary to her Son, with Whose suffering she participates in a unique way. Again, if the Simeon's prophecy were not of importance, why would the scripture preserve this unusual wording? How often do you hear of someone suffering a wound and as a result getting an insight into other people's thoughts?
Thank you for the questions, and for your thoughful attitude.
Veneration of the Saints - Stephen died early enough, as did James and some others - if we were supposed to give them veneration, there was ample opportunity for us to be given that example in the Scriptures. We were not.
I fully agree we should reflect on the example of those who have gone before, but veneration (”venerate: to regard or treat with reverence; revere. Origin: L veneratus, ptp. of venerari to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere”) goes too far. It may be that Catholics use veneration in a different sense than the current dictionary definition, in which case we might agree.
““Specifically about the Blessed Virgin Mary, we have an assurance that “all generations will call her blessed” (Lk 1),””
True. And it has pretty much NOTHING to do with how Catholics view Mary. She was blessed (favored) BY God. But we shouldn’t lose our focus, as Jesus pointed out in Luke 11: “27As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
There is nothing there to encourage us to pay attention to Mary. On the contrary, Jesus tells the woman to focus on God instead.
“she leads the Church in her battle with Satan (Rev. 12)”
No. See: http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012
“and she is given us as our mother (Jn 19)”
26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”
Nothing in there about her becoming a mother to us all...
34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed 35(and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
From Barnes:
Verse 34. Simeon blessed them. Joseph and Mary. On them he sought the blessing of God.
Is set. Is appointed or constituted for that, or such will be he effect of his coming.
The fall. The word fall here denotes misery, suffering, disappointment, or ruin. There is a plain reference to the passage where it is said that he should be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence, Isaiah 8:14,15. Many expected a temporal prince, and in this they were disappointed. They loved darkness rather than light, and rejected him, and fell unto destruction. Many that were proud were brought low by his preaching. They fell from the vain and giddy height of their own self-righteousness, and were humbled before God, and then, through him, rose again to a better righteousness and to better hopes. The nation also rejected him and put him to death, and, as a judgment, fell into the hands of the Romans. Thousands were led into captivity, and thousands perished. The nation rushed into ruin, the temple was destroyed, and the people were scattered into all the nations. See Romans 9:32,33;; 1 Peter 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:23,24.
And rising again. The word “again” is not expressed in the Greek. It seems to be supposed, in our translation, that the same persons would fall and rise again; but this is not the meaning of the passage. It denotes that many would be ruined by his coming, and that many others would be made happy or be saved. Many of the poor and humble, that were willing to receive him, would obtain pardon of sin and peace—would rise from their sins and sorrows here, and finally ascend to eternal life.
And for a sign, &c. The word sign here denotes a conspicuous or distinguished object, and the Lord Jesus was such an object of contempt and rejection by all the people. He was despised, and his religion has been the common mark or sign for all the wicked, the profligate, and the profane, to curse, and ridicule, and oppose. Comp. Isaiah 8:18; Acts 28:22. Never was a prophecy more exactly fulfilled than this. Thousands have rejected the gospel and fallen into ruin; thousands are still falling of those who are ashamed of Jesus; thousands blaspheme him, deny him, speak all manner of evil against him, and would crucify him again if he were in their hands; but thousands also by him are renewed, justified, and raised up to life and peace.
{q} “fall” Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:32,33; 1 Corinthians 1:23,24; 2 Corinthians 2:16; 1 Peter 2:7,8
{r} “spoken against” Acts 28:22
Verse 35. Yea, a sword {s} , &c. The sufferings and death of thy Son shall deeply afflict thy soul. And if Mary had not been thus forewarned and sustained by strong faith, she could not have borne the trials which came upon her Son; but God prepared her for it, and the holy mother of the dying Saviour was sustained.
That the thoughts, &c. This is connected with the preceding verse: “He shall be a sign, a conspicuous object to be spoken against, that the thoughts of many hearts may be made manifest”— that is, that they might show how much they hated holiness. Nothing so brings out the feelings of sinners as to tell them of Jesus Christ. Many treat him with silent contempt; many are ready to gnash their teeth; many curse him; all show how much by nature the heart is opposed to religion, and thus are really, in spite of themselves, fulfilling the Scriptures and the prophecies. So true is it that “none can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost,” 1 Corinthians 12:3.