Posted on 08/07/2009 9:00:03 AM PDT by Teófilo
The point remains that the scripture does not teach that Bible alone is sufficient, but it does teach that the tradition of the Church and the scripture together are sufficient for priestly formation. What you think of the Catholic Church does not alter what the Scripture says
***Correct, the oral teaching and the scripture are together sufficient
At the time of Timothy; no more teaching and Scripture is required...***
Interesting. Are you prepared to eliminate 2 Peter, the Gospel of John and Revelation from your Bible? What about all those other books of Scripture written after Timothy? Want to eliminate Luke or Matthew? What about Jude?
***to perfect the clergyman
And where is that found? I see man of God, we are all men of God, we are all called to spread His Word. I do not see a restriction in that verse to clergy!***
Then we must go through the passages of the Gospel and find out where he spoke to Peter, where he spoke to the Apostles, and where he spoke to the disciples. Each has its place in the Church and each has its calling.
***exactly what the Catholic Church teaches
Except the Catholic Church has added theology and teachings beyond that which existed for Timothy, and claims that it must be accepted as inerrant.***
The Church has authority from Christ; individual men do not.
You never show the error, because you refuse to address the actual question. You create strawmen that you attack, and claim victory over that.
Let us make note of the point that the sacred writings here are the OT and that the OT is there to give wisdom. Paul is trying to sell the new religion to the Gentiles in Ephesus. And, he is also trying to convince Timothy to set up succession for himself, as he set Timothy up to replace himself. Paul is writing from imprisonment in Rome, to set the stage.
See Annalex's post just two up (678). We agree that the Scriptures and oral teachings at the time of Timothy are sufficient for salvation.
You're trying to change what is being said, to twist it to support some succession! READ THE VERSES! They are quite explicit: the teachings and writings at the time of Timothy are sufficient for a man to be saved.
These verses say NOTHING of the succession of leaders, nothing of convincing Gentiles of Christ. They tell about how Timothy should be strong because he knows everything needed to spread the Word of God!
All Scripture is inspired by God. As the Councils decreed.
The councils decreed nothing; God decreed it. The councils merely confirmed what God already did. The councils are subservient to God; the cannot limit what He does.
So that every man may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Yes, we have been prepared for salvation by the writings and teachings at the time of Timothy. We are thus prepared to do the good works that Christ calls us to do.
But the Reformation has denied the importance of good works.
Then you are wrong about the Reformation. It has denied that good works gain you entry into Heaven! Salvation is from faith, and faith alone.
On earth, good works can be a sign of a man's salvation; what is good in us will be manifest in what we do. But if a man does millions of good works, yet refuses Christ, he is not saved.
Works are immaterial to salvation; they may be an example of a person's potential salvation, but they gain you nothing in your salvation.
That is opposite of much of the teachings of the Catholic Church at the time of Luther. You cannot work or buy your way into Heaven; God cannot be bribed! Thus to concern yourself with doing good works is waste; the motive behind your good works are repulsive to God.
Good works should be done as an expression of what is inside you, and should come without thinking, naturally. In fact, Jesus told us - by his example - to keep our good works to ourselves, to not brag or boast or share about what we do! God knows what we do, and why we do it; boasting or publicly performing good works is not good in the eyes of God.
So, rather than your contention that Protestants deny good works, I would counter that we deny the use of good works to earn "brownie points" with God. We understand that good works that come from true internal salvation and faith in Christ are natural from that salvation and faith; anything else is simply an attempt to bribe God, and that is evil in intent.
Therefore, with nothing referencing salvation, one’s soul, or eternal life with God, where is your basis now?
Tell me, is just saying a few rosaries going to gain you entry into Heaven? Will it lower your supposed time in Purgatory? Does not the REASON you say the rosary matter? Or is it just the actions themselves?
You ignore the motive for the actions; that is exactly what Christ was warning about when He told his disciples "tell no one of what I just did", as He performed some of His miracles. It wasn't about WHAT was done, it was about WHY it was done.
Emphasizing works in relation to salvation ignores the why, and focuses on the what. Which is EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what Christ called us to do.
Where is Biblical sufficiency for other than the filthy rags?
I don't understand what you are saying here.
“We begin by noting that Scripture is theopneustos, “God-breathed.” The term is very strong. I refer anyone who wishes a full discussion of this term to B.B. Warfield’s excellent treatment of it. That which is theopneustos has ultimate authority, for there can be no higher authority than God’s very speaking. “All Scripture is God-breathed.”
It is common for Roman Catholic apologists to follow an error made by John Henry Cardinal Newman, with reference to this passage. Indeed, Karl Keating, Patrick’s associate at Catholic Answers, makes the same mistake in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism. And he repeated it again only recently during a debate on this subject in Denver during the papal visit. Newman said that if this verse proves the sufficiency of Scripture, it proves too much, for Paul is talking here only of the Old Testament, which would leave the New Testament as an unnecessary addition. But such is not Paul’s point at all. Scripture, Paul’s point is, if it is Scripture at all, is God-breathed. Paul is not speaking about the extent of the canon but the nature of Scripture itself as originating in God. All Scripture then, including the New Testament, is God-breathed.
Because Scripture is God-breathed, and hence represents God’s very voice speaking, it is profitable for the work of the ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ. We are told that the work of teaching, and rebuking, and correcting, and training in righteousness, can be undertaken due to the nature of Scripture as God-breathed. What is Paul’s point?
The Church is not left without the voice of God. For when the Church listens to Scripture, she is hearing her Lord speaking to her. The authority of the Church then, in teaching, and rebuking, and instructing, is derived, despite Roman Catholic claims to the contrary, from Scripture itself...
...We see here, then, that Paul teaches that the man of God is thoroughly or completely equipped for every good work. Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?
I have recently taken up long-distance bicycle riding, and I’ve found a lovely little bike shack, a bike store where they are able to give me everything that I need, the clothes and the gloves and the helmet and the bike and the tires and the tubes, which you need a lot—they are able to fully equip me for the task of riding a bike. Does that not mean then, that they are sufficient as equippers for their task? Most definitely it does!
We further see, the Scriptures can equip the man of God for every good work. Now, Mr. Madrid, do you not believe that it is a good work to pray to Mary? Yet, the Scriptures nowhere teach this. Do you not believe that it is good to believe and teach that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven? Yet, the Bible does not teach this. Do you not believe that the man of God should teach, in the Church, that the pope, in Rome, is infallible in his teaching office? Yet, the Scriptures know nothing of such a concept.”
http://vintage.aomin.org/SANTRAN.html
In part. The counterscriptural stretch is that because the Church can speak with the authority of the scripture, God doesn't speak to her unless through the scripture. The conclusion, that "the Scriptures nowhere teach" praying to Mary, for example, does not follow from the analysis, in itself correct, of 2 Timothy 3:15f. Further, elsewhere in the scripture we read that God does speak to the Church directly, and not from the scripture:
the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26)12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. (John 16)
No restriction of any kind does Jesus place on this speach. He did not say "the spirit will dictate the scripture to some of you and then all of you will teach from the scripture alone". God speaks to the Church always, then and today. We have God's word for it.
Actually, the passages you refer to:
“25 These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
and “7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you...12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”
are spoken to the disciples, not a Church organization. Therefore, we read of the Holy Spirit filling individuals, and resulting in fruit that only individuals can possess.
***You have not shown me this dozens of times. I don’t remember you showing me this more than once and I showed you the error of it then. If you wish, let us go through the lesson again:
You never show the error, because you refuse to address the actual question. You create strawmen that you attack, and claim victory over that. ***
You claimed that you have shown this to me dozens of times, which you have not done. Now you claim that I never show the error because I refuse to to address the actual question. The actual question is whether this passage from Timothy shows Biblical sufficiency for all things Christian.
As I noted, the letter is addressed to Timothy, as Paul languishes in prison. Timothy has, basically, taken over for Paul as bishop. Paul is upset and pessimistic, and does not fancy his chance for release, so he is trying to bolster Timothy up and get him to prepare for his own succession.
The Greek pagans at Ephesus have not read the OT; they are converted to Christianity, not to Judaism. So, Paul is reminding Timothy of his own worthiness and the basis for his beliefs, as he leads Ephesus as the bishop.
So, the first two verses are cheerleading and confidence building. But they do not make the Protestant point. The seocnd are bruited about as if they do.
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But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,
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and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Capable of giving you wisdom. To Timothy, not to the Greeks. And being capable does not mean that it actually happens. And capable for what? Wisdom. For what” Salvation through faith. That does not mean that it actually happens or happened. This is partially to bolster Timothy and partially to bolster Paul himself who is growing every more conscious that he might not escape prison this time.
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3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
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so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Scripture is useful. Nobody contests that. For what? If one reads much of Luke and most of Matthew, for good works. So, we have Timothy reminded of reading the OT so that he might be capable to acquire the wisdom to be saved.
This does not mean Biblical sufficiency in any way, shape or form.
***Let us make note of the point that the sacred writings here are the OT and that the OT is there to give wisdom. Paul is trying to sell the new religion to the Gentiles in Ephesus. And, he is also trying to convince Timothy to set up succession for himself, as he set Timothy up to replace himself. Paul is writing from imprisonment in Rome, to set the stage.
See Annalex’s post just two up (678). We agree that the Scriptures and oral teachings at the time of Timothy are sufficient for salvation.***
Alex says that: Correct, the oral teaching and the scripture are together sufficient to perfect the clergyman, exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.
In other words, the Magisterium and Tradition of the Church plus Scripture is sufficient. The Scripture of the time of Timothy did not contain any NT. Therefore, the fledgling Church’s teaching of Jesus was entirely oral. And such things as the doctrine of the Trinity did not exist. John’s Gospel is the first to allude to His Divinity and that wasn’t written for decades after Paul was martyred. Therefore at this point, Jesus was not considered Divine. Oral tradition and the OT is NOT sufficient at this point for us in 2009. We have Church doctrine on His divinity many decades after Paul’s martyrdom, and not before.
***You’re trying to change what is being said, to twist it to support some succession! READ THE VERSES! They are quite explicit: the teachings and writings at the time of Timothy are sufficient for a man to be saved.***
The words are an attempt to bolster Timothy alone, and do not have reference to any other man.
***These verses say NOTHING of the succession of leaders, nothing of convincing Gentiles of Christ. They tell about how Timothy should be strong because he knows everything needed to spread the Word of God!***
They actually say that his readings of the OT could have led him to acquire enough wisdom to be saved through Jesus. Remember that all Jewry have read these verses of the OT and that the entire Jewish people, with a handful of exceptions, rejected that interpretation.
***All Scripture is inspired by God. As the Councils decreed.
The councils decreed nothing; God decreed it. The councils merely confirmed what God already did. The councils are subservient to God; the cannot limit what He does.***
Are you saying that God descended into the council rooms at Nicea, Carthage, and Hippo and told the Councils what to do? How did God decree it? What was His actions and what are His decrees written on? Can you produce them?
***So that every man may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Yes, we have been prepared for salvation by the writings and teachings at the time of Timothy. We are thus prepared to do the good works that Christ calls us to do.***
Nonsense. That instruction was for Timothy only. If you were a Jew reading only the OT, would you believe in Jesus Christ as He actually was on earth? No way. And 99.999% of all Jews believed and still believe that way. They didn’t understand that Jesus was Divine at that point.
***But the Reformation has denied the importance of good works.
Then you are wrong about the Reformation. It has denied that good works gain you entry into Heaven! Salvation is from faith, and faith alone.***
Really? Then why the rant against good works? And the Bible itself instructs us throughout Matthew, much of Luke and parts of Mark and John that good works are required for salvation. You have not addressed my questions to you regarding the Beatitudes and Matthew 25.
***On earth, good works can be a sign of a man’s salvation; what is good in us will be manifest in what we do. But if a man does millions of good works, yet refuses Christ, he is not saved.***
You keep reverting to this. Why? We agree and are in accord on this point.
***Works are immaterial to salvation; they may be an example of a person’s potential salvation, but they gain you nothing in your salvation.***
What do you think that you are Judged on? Revelation 2:
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16 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira, 17 write this: “ ‘The Son of God, whose eyes are like a fiery flame and whose feet are like polished brass, says this:
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“I know your works, your love, faith, service, and endurance, and that your last works are greater than the first.
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Yet I hold this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, who teaches and misleads my servants to play the harlot and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 18
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I have given her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her harlotry.
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So I will cast her on a sickbed and plunge those who commit adultery with her into intense suffering unless they repent of her works.
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I will also put her children 19 to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds and that I will give each of you what your works deserve.
What your works deserve. I wonder what this means in light of the death and destruction mentioned. Romans 2:
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They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
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on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Judge hidden works? Sounds rather non Protestant to me.
***That is opposite of much of the teachings of the Catholic Church at the time of Luther. You cannot work or buy your way into Heaven; God cannot be bribed! Thus to concern yourself with doing good works is waste; the motive behind your good works are repulsive to God. ***
Doing works without faith is nothing. Having faith without works is a lie and therefore nothing. To have the Grace of God is required; the imitation of Christ one does is what we are Judged on. Without the Grace of God, one is Judged unworthy.
***Good works should be done as an expression of what is inside you, and should come without thinking, naturally. In fact, Jesus told us - by his example - to keep our good works to ourselves, to not brag or boast or share about what we do! God knows what we do, and why we do it; boasting or publicly performing good works is not good in the eyes of God.***
Should be done? No, rather, it must be done. Otherwise, your Bible must edited of Matthew, much of Luke and swathes of Mark and John.
***So, rather than your contention that Protestants deny good works, I would counter that we deny the use of good works to earn “brownie points” with God. We understand that good works that come from true internal salvation and faith in Christ are natural from that salvation and faith; anything else is simply an attempt to bribe God, and that is evil in intent.***
You displayed a very non Christian rant against good works. Does that mean that you really don’t want these mythical brownie points? :) At any rate, how do you explain the Beatitudes without recognizing the importance of one’s actions?
***Therefore, with nothing referencing salvation, one’s soul, or eternal life with God, where is your basis now?
Tell me, is just saying a few rosaries going to gain you entry into Heaven? Will it lower your supposed time in Purgatory? Does not the REASON you say the rosary matter? Or is it just the actions themselves?***
We follow the commands of Christ. Matthew 6:
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5 6 “This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
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your kingdom come, 7 your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
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8 Give us today our daily bread;
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and forgive us our debts, 9 as we forgive our debtors;
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and do not subject us to the final test, 10 but deliver us from the evil one. Luke 11:
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1 2 He was praying in a certain place, and when he had finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John taught his disciples.”
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3 He said to them, “When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.
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Give us each day our daily bread 4
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and forgive us our sins for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test.”
1 Thessalonians 5:
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See that no one returns evil for evil; rather, always seek what is good (both) for each other and for all.
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Rejoice always.
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Pray without ceasing.
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In all circumstances give thanks, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.
I feel sorrow if a self described Christian does not pray. I pray every day - on my way to work in the morning, with the radio off and the coffee untouched - and in the evening in a family prayer. We pray in thankgiving to God, in worship of God and in supplication to God. And, we kneel before God. Most Protestants that I know do not.
***You ignore the motive for the actions; that is exactly what Christ was warning about when He told his disciples “tell no one of what I just did”, as He performed some of His miracles. It wasn’t about WHAT was done, it was about WHY it was done.***
You will find that in most of these cases, He was telling them to keep it secret in order for them to go out and spread the news, just like women and little kids tell each other a secret, only prefaced by the admonishment not to tell anyone else. That only speeds up the telling, right?
***Emphasizing works in relation to salvation ignores the why, and focuses on the what. Which is EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what Christ called us to do.***
You may wish to move away from two valued logic. I do not emphasize works in relation to salvation. I say that Christ says that works after we receive Grace is what we are Judged on. The sheep and the goats, you know?
***Where is Biblical sufficiency for other than the filthy rags?
I don’t understand what you are saying here.***
The Bible only says that sufficiency is for the identification of good works. You call them filthy rags. Jesus says that He will Judge us on them. Who takes precedence here?
***“We begin by noting that Scripture is theopneustos, “God-breathed.” The term is very strong. I refer anyone who wishes a full discussion of this term to B.B. Warfield’s excellent treatment of it. That which is theopneustos has ultimate authority, for there can be no higher authority than God’s very speaking. “All Scripture is God-breathed.”
It is common for Roman Catholic apologists to follow an error made by John Henry Cardinal Newman, with reference to this passage. Indeed, Karl Keating, Patrick’s associate at Catholic Answers, makes the same mistake in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism. And he repeated it again only recently during a debate on this subject in Denver during the papal visit. Newman said that if this verse proves the sufficiency of Scripture, it proves too much, for Paul is talking here only of the Old Testament, which would leave the New Testament as an unnecessary addition. But such is not Paul’s point at all. Scripture, Paul’s point is, if it is Scripture at all, is God-breathed. Paul is not speaking about the extent of the canon but the nature of Scripture itself as originating in God. All Scripture then, including the New Testament, is God-breathed.***
Let us put that aside for the moment, if you would. The question at the moment is not really if Scripture is God breathed, although certain authors tell us with no uncertainty that it is not; the question is whether the words on the page of the Bible that you are reading is God dictated.
***...We see here, then, that Paul teaches that the man of God is thoroughly or completely equipped for every good work. Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?***
The task in this question is the performance of the works of Christ after one has accepted Christ. The Bible most certainly gives us rather explicit instructions in that. For instance: Luke 6:
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10 11 And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
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Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
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Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man.
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Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
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But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
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But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.
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Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.
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12 “But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
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bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
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To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
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Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
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Do to others as you would have them do to you.
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For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
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And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
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If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
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But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
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Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.
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13 “Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
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Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.”
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And he told them a parable, “Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?
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No disciple is superior to the teacher; but when fully trained, every disciple will be like his teacher.
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Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own?
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How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.
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14 “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit.
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For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles.
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A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
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“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
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15 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
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That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
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But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”
This is the instruction for the Christian’s behaviour and these are the guidelines of the Judgement that everyone who has been given the Grace of God will experience. I say that these are sufficient.
***We further see, the Scriptures can equip the man of God for every good work. Now, Mr. Madrid, do you not believe that it is a good work to pray to Mary? Yet, the Scriptures nowhere teach this. Do you not believe that it is good to believe and teach that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven? Yet, the Bible does not teach this. Do you not believe that the man of God should teach, in the Church, that the pope, in Rome, is infallible in his teaching office? Yet, the Scriptures know nothing of such a concept.”***
If the Church is to teach, it must teach infallibly. Much of what Catholic, and indeed Protestant doctrines, have come to be derives not only from the current canon, but from early sources believed to be canonical. In other words, the Church derived some doctrine from sources such as the Protoevangelium which were judged by the Church to be not included in Scripture, yet had sufficient correct information from James to have that portion included in the Deposit of Faith.
***In part. The counterscriptural stretch is that because the Church can speak with the authority of the scripture, God doesn’t speak to her unless through the scripture. The conclusion, that “the Scriptures nowhere teach” praying to Mary, for example, does not follow from the analysis, in itself correct, of 2 Timothy 3:15f. Further, elsewhere in the scripture we read that God does speak to the Church directly, and not from the scripture:
the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26)
12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. (John 16)
No restriction of any kind does Jesus place on this speach. He did not say “the spirit will dictate the scripture to some of you and then all of you will teach from the scripture alone”. God speaks to the Church always, then and today. We have God’s word for it.***
And the emphasis ought to be that God speaks to the Church, not to Luther’s any milkmaid or nine year old that can read. He certainly took that back in his declining years when he saw the logical outcome of his heretical behaviour.
***are spoken to the disciples, not a Church organization.***
The Church organization was almost completely created by this point. We need to discern between the leaders of the Church (Peter and the Apostles), the later deacons and bishops, and the laity. Each has its role in the theological life of the Church.
And St. Paul speaks to individual named Timothy in Timothy 3, whereas the Church is an assembly of individual people. This is a distinctions without difference: the point is that it destroys the false syllogism that because the scripture is God-breathed and useful for the perfection of the clergy, it is also alone sufficient.
Yes. Note how in the Protestant spin "all scripture" magically refers to the scripture not written yet, but not to Maccabees and Tobit, which Timothy certainly knew since childhood. "The man of God", however, refers to just about anyone, but surely not to the people formally recognized as such.
***any milkmaid or nine year old that can read
Yes. Note how in the Protestant spin “all scripture” magically refers to the scripture not written yet, but not to Maccabees and Tobit, which Timothy certainly knew since childhood. “The man of God”, however, refers to just about anyone, but surely not to the people formally recognized as such.***
Some of the basic beliefs by our separated friends include the idea that the KJV was widely distributed on Church and personal computers throughout the world but that the Catholics pulled a complete interdiction on the Internet of the time and got all the KJV Bible copies destroyed or pulled and replaced by incomprensible Latin Bibles.
Reminds me of a Church of Christ pastor who objected to my Catholicism (and therefore connection to illegal Mexican immigrants) by speckling my face with spittle while loudly declaiming that if the KJV was good enough for Jesus, it was good enough for me. A fine example of Christianity.
“And the emphasis ought to be that God speaks to the Church, not to Luther’s any milkmaid or nine year old that can read. He certainly took that back in his declining years when he saw the logical outcome of his heretical behaviour.”
I’d love to see the quote where Luther regrets putting the Bible in the hands of the people and in their language! Do you have it?
I hate to break it to you, but:
“7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul;
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” - Psalms 19
The problem for the Catholic Church isn’t that scripture is so hard to understand, but that so much is so simple. The promise of the Holy Spirit - is it to a church organization, or individuals?
John 14: “ 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”
Is that written to believers, or a church organization?
Moments later he says, “20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Is that said to individuals, or a church organization?
“25”These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.”
Is he addressing a church organization, or believers?
“The counterscriptural stretch is that because the Church can speak with the authority of the scripture...”
Really? Where do you get that? Name the time it says a church organization speaks with the breath of God Himself?
This is where you err - scripture is God-breathed. Traditions of Saint X and Saint Y, paintings by Saint Z - nowhere are they given the authority that comes from God Himself. You might as well join the Mormons - at least their additional ‘revelations’ are written and published! Yours are 2000 years of disagreeing writings, waiting to be cherry-picked by an ecclesiastical body (or a man) and then given the weight of God Himself - your church claims.
“...from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” - 2 Tim 3
Scripture can teach, rebuke, correct and train you to be “...thoroughly equipped for every good work.” - having already made you “...wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
Not everything one believes needs to come from Scripture, but everything needed to make you wise for salvation and to thoroughly equip you for every good work is found there.
Scripture mentions the oral teachings of the Apostles, but that is NOT what the Catholic Church adds. It adds traditions from various church members over a thousand years and more, and makes them equal to the writings of the Apostles themselves.
They are not.
“Yes. Note how in the Protestant spin “all scripture” magically refers to the scripture not written yet, but not to Maccabees and Tobit, which Timothy certainly knew since childhood. “The man of God”, however, refers to just about anyone, but surely not to the people formally recognized as such.”
All is also translated every - so if it is scripture, then it is God-breathed. If it isn’t God-breathed, it isn’t scripture.
No doubt Timothy knew of the Apocrypha, as he also knew of Greek philosophy - but his knowing it doesn’t make it scripture. God makes it scripture, not Timothy knowing what it says.
Now, what makes you think ‘man of God’ DOESN’T apply to genuine leaders? Of course it does - if genuine, and not wolves.
“29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard!” - Acts 20
The point Iscool has been making is that a man who lives a life of unrepentant evil is a false teacher - and even Catholics admit there were many Popes who lived their lives in disregard of any restraining morality.
” 15”Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21”Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” - Matthew 7 (Jesus speaking)
“In other words, the Church derived some doctrine from sources such as the Protoevangelium which were judged by the Church to be not included in Scripture, yet had sufficient correct information from James to have that portion included in the Deposit of Faith.”
More correctly, the CATHOLIC Church has done this - to their shame!
And where is this authoritative “Deposit of Faith”? Where can I read it? And what makes it equal - or in many cases, superior - to Scripture?
The Church is primarily, people united to her. Those people at the time of Christ are known as His disciples. So, the Holy Ghost speaks to the Church and He speaks to the people. That is in addition to the scripture.
There is no time limit in John 14 through John 16 (well, there is a time limit after when the Holy Ghost will speak, but there is not time limit when He will stop to speak). So, so long as there is the Church (Mt. 16:18 suggests, that would be a long time), the Holy Ghost speaks to her, and she speaks to us.
See how you start with your premise: The Deuterocanon is not scripture, -- and proceed to conclusde the exact opposite of what 2 Tim. 3 says, that all scripture known to Timothy since childhood is God-breathed. By the same logic I can decide that the book of Matthew is not scripture.
The Apocrypha wasn’t considered scripture - not by the Jews before the time of Christ, and not by the Apostles, to judge from the absence of any quotes of authority.
“From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures” - but not everything Timothy knew was Scripture.
Define “Church”.
If it is the body of believers, and only believers, then you are correct.
However, if you mean the visible Church - well, it has believers and deceivers, and the deceivers do NOT have the Holy Spirit guiding them.
The promise of the Holy Spirit is to believers, not to ecclesiastical bodies. Jesus promised the latter would have wolves in sheeps’ clothing.
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