Posted on 08/07/2009 9:00:03 AM PDT by Teófilo
It's rather confusing; in the Catechism, if I never heard of Jesus I could be saved, but since I have heard of Jesus and am not Catholic my salvation is in doubt. In this thread I'm being told by Catholics that they will not sit in judgment of my relationship with God, yet they will deny me the sacrament of communion in their Church because I don't have a relationship with God.
Essentially, if you are to be saved, you better be Catholic or be a lost-tribesman in the Amazon - those are your only choices!
But, in all fairness, the Evangelicals are no different. They go all over the world to convert people to Christ because they believe one is saved only through him. What differs between the Catholics and the Evangelicals is just the label. Instead of calling the "saved" Catholics, they are called Christians!
To a large extent, I would agree. But I'd also say that Evangelicals are unequivocal about this: the only way to salvation is through Jesus. Just believing in God isn't enough. You must accept Jesus as the Savior. That's what Jesus said, and it's good enough for me.
Additionally, I don't know too many evangelicals, and I don't know ANY doctrine, that says Catholics or Orthodox or other evangelical churches aren't saved because they are in a different church. We may disagree on how to worship, and some of the smaller doctrines, but your faith and your salvation are up to you and God, not some church and it's doctrines.
We're glad to call you Christian whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, or Lutheran! Unfortunately, one "Church" on that list doesn't see things the same way...
“”one “Church” on that list doesn’t see things the same way””
I don’t know where you getting this idea from,dear friend.
The Catholic Church recognizes protestants as Christians,we just don;t accept them being called a churches,we accept them as Christian communities. There can only be one true Church,not many.
The following is an excerpt from Blessed Pope John Paul 2 encyclical Dominus Iesus. I suggest you read the whole thing because it should help you understand the Church’s position on some of the questions you’re posting.
Excerpt...
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63
“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history
That's sophistry, Alex.
Let us be clear what that virtue is. It is an incomplete revelation of God through the ancient prophets, that the Jews received most directly and the Muslims received in some form as well (they, too, read the Old Testament). That is the plan, apparently, to have these concentric circles of truth around the Word fully revealed to the Church
Alex, the Catechism clearly says all who "acknowledge" the Creator are in Gods plan of salvation. That's a much broader brush than just those who read the Old Testament.
However, the elaboration of the Catechism that is under discussion has merits for the changed world.
The elaboration of the Catechism is simply a roundabout way of saying everyone is called but only those who show up and become Catholic in will be saved.
and everyone will receive a reward for virtue from Christ, often to his greatest surprise
And if not? Who do we go after? You? It's easy for you to promise things you can't deliver, knowing you cannot be held accountable for your claims. So, I say prove it, or stop spreading rumors! I do understand that this is what you believe, and that's fine with me, but you are presenting your beliefs not as your faith but as fact.
Well, the Catholics say that too, except they say that when that happens you become Catholic. I image they probably think Jesus was "Catholic" by definition, even though we think he was an observant Jew!
Either side is out there convincing people that they must believe something to be saved or else all hell breaks loose.
So, your side says all who are in heaven are Jesus believing Christians and the Catholic side says all those in heaven are Jesus believing Catholics. What's the difference? Both sides are selling their brand of salvation.
That is the accurate description of the nature of God.
all who "acknowledge" the Creator are in Gods plan of salvation
Everyone is in the plan of salvation, even those who don't acknowledge God.
only those who show up and become Catholic in will be saved.
Yes, however, no formal conversion might take place. This is something that, with the mercy of Christ, might happen in a twinkling of an eye. I had made that clear before, didn't I?
you are presenting your beliefs not as your faith but as fact
These are facts I believe in. You are free to disbelieve me.
That is man's definition of God, not an "accurate description" of his nature. God is even to Catholic scholars (except you, apaprently) an unknoable secret (mystery). You may wish to educate the Vatican with your discovery.
Everyone is in the plan of salvation, even those who don't acknowledge God
That's not what the Catechism says, Alex.
These are facts I believe in. You are free to disbelieve me.
You will have to prove that what you believe in are "facts." So far you have merely made statements of faith presneted as statements of fact, along with promises you can't deliver and are not repsonible for, without offering a shred of evidence other than your belief that there is anything factual about them.
unknoable=unknowable
presneted=presented
Something about those facts and descriptions is compelling you to keep responding with inanities. Reflect about it.
The difference is that "Christian" includes Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Messianic Jews, anyone who professes Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Catholic is pretty narrow in terms of "Church".
Evangelicals don't expect we'll all be in high mass every day with the Latin Rite. We don't know what form the praise will take, but it will be praise, and it will be for the Glory of God.
You don't have to "convert" from Orthodoxy to reach Heaven; I don't have to "convert" from Free Methodism to reach Heaven with you. We both just need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and follow His lead!
I'd say that's a pretty big difference between Evangelicals and Catholics, right there... We don't claim to be the "one true Church" and that everyone will "become like us" when we reach Heaven... All we stick to is what Jesus claimed, and let it be at that.
Those aren't facts, they are - as Kosta points out - simply statements of faith. Prove any of them, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Prove that we will all become "Catholic" when we get to Heaven.
You can't. It's impossible. It is simply a statement of faith. This is the biggest problem with the Catholic Church - because the Church has concluded that it is inerrant, it confuses its own dogma for facts, and in the process ends up superceding the Bible with the Catechism.
Yes, other people's persistent claims that they are facts and having nothing to offer as credible evidence. What do you call someone who keeps making false claims? I call them liars.
I understand the difference, PSS. It is a difference in degree and not in kind. Both sides are doing the same thing; it's just that one is more exclusive than the other. It's like a yacht club. The Catholic club allows only yachts and insists on being the "true" yacht club. The Protestant club allows yachts and other boats, and insists that sailing is more important than what you call your boat; after all thyeare all boats! The Catholic Church claims universal jurisdictional authority and high exclusiveness. Protestant groups claim no universal jurisdictional authority and high inclusiveness.
But both sides are selling a retirement lot in heaven with nothing more than a comforting hope as a collateral.
We don't know what form the praise will take, but it will be praise, and it will be for the Glory of God.
What is (in theory) not for the glory of God? Even the devil.
We both just need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and follow His lead!
Why?
I'd say that's a pretty big difference between Evangelicals and Catholics, right there... We don't claim to be the "one true Church" and that everyone will "become like us" when we reach Heaven...
But of course you claim that everyone will be like you in heaven—a Christian, right? Do you anticipate finding unrepentant Jews and Muslims, and chaste Hindus and devout Buddhists there too? Of course not. So, they have to be like you in order to be saved. That's just a different label and a different contract agreement, PSS. :)
Faith, based on the Words of Jesus in the Bible.
PSS: Faith, based on the Words of Jesus in the Bible
Dear friend, in #609 you wrote
I will not only ask you why again, but also what gives you the right to tell me what I need to acknowledge?
It's this kind of (sometimes unintentional) arrogance and self-righteousness that makes self-professed Christians as un-Christian as it gets.
What makes your book holier than other so-called sacred books? What proof do you have to offer that this is indeed the "true" scripture, so much so that you can tell someone he or she "needs to acknowledge it" as such, other than your personal conviction? And I am supposed to entrust my life, indeed all my hopes, on this "witness?"
And if it is not true, do I get my money back? Who should I sue for false advertising? You? You can neither guarantee nor prove that what you are selling as truth is indeed truth.
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe and and let others do the same? Isn't a belief supposed to be a private matter?
Selling salvation is no different then selling indulgences, my friend. Ironic, isn't it? The whole Protestant movement was started because Luther was scandalized over the Church selling indulgences, yet selling salvation by Protestants is okay? What got reformed? A label?
My statements come from the divinely revealed knowledge that the Catholic Church possesses and reveals. That you do not believe them, doesn't make them any less facts.
PING!
Why? Because I believe God - through Jesus - told me as much. And what gives me the right? The commands of Jesus. I will state as much; I will not force you to any religion, however.
Do you not evangelize and share the Word of God with others?
It's this kind of (sometimes unintentional) arrogance and self-righteousness that makes self-professed Christians as un-Christian as it gets.
Explain the Great Commission, then. How do you spread the Word of God to everyone?
What makes your book holier than other so-called sacred books?
Faith. Pure and simple. However, I will not burn or kill people for not converting to my religion. I will tell them about it, and why I believe it, but ultimately it is their decision.
You can neither guarantee nor prove that what you are selling as truth is indeed truth.
I do neither. I never will. If you do not want to hear, then simply say as much and I will be quiet. But I believe my God told me to tell others about how to receive salvation, and that is what I intend to do.
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe and and let others do the same? Isn't a belief supposed to be a private matter?
Then tell me the Orthodox view on the Great Commission. If evangelism is to be avoided, then how do you reconcile that with the words of the Savior you are supposed to follow?
It comes down to faith. I cannot prove anything, I can share what I believe, and why I believe it. But ultimately it comes down to my belief and faith.
Selling salvation is no different then selling indulgences, my friend. Ironic, isn't it?
No. You have claimed the Nicene Creed as your own; please explain how you can believe in one God and let others worship their own gods. Explain how you can deny the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, when he tells us:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Do you advocate not following the last words of our Savior in the Gospel of Matthew? Is that the view of the Orthodox Church?
Prove they are divinely revealed. It is only by your belief and faith that you accept them.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. (John 16:13)
“...come from the divinely revealed knowledge that the Catholic Church possesses and reveals.”
Where would one find the divinely revealed knowledge of the Catholic Church? Why not write it down?
It would look nice along side the divine interpretation of scripture.
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