[GonzoII]

"the Lord Jesus had to be transformed before He could talk with them."

God is not restricted by anything, He's God.

Was he transfigured when he called Lazarus back from the dead?

The manifestation of His Divinity on Mt. Tabor was not done by and interior need that had to be fulfilled before he could speak to the departed just, it was to prepare the Apostles for the trials that were about to come.

"It may prove that the just are alive"

It does. So the claim that Catholics talk with the dead is groundless.

"The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid.."

Well, if they were afraid to talk that doesn't mean they were unable to.

"It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father."

Christ needs no intercessors, no one claimed that he was asking them for their prayers, He's God. The point originally was that Catholics transgress the First Commandment by praying to the just for intercession. I've proved that false.

"No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20."

There's no need, we are all one Body in Christ. You can't separate the head from the body (members):

Jn15:5-7 "I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.

Surely the just in heaven are abiding in Christ therefore Christ's words are still applicable to them.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

This shows that Divine help is promised by prayer it doesn't say that the just in heaven can't obtain that same help for those in earth.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

the Lord Jesus had to be transformed before He could talk with them."

God is not restricted by anything, He's God.

I do not agree that God is not restricted by anything.  He has to live by the rules He established. If He does not, He will cease to be God. He does nothing without a purpose. If Jesus didn't have to be transformed, He wouldn't have been.

Was he transfigured when he called Lazarus back from the dead?

Let us see what scripture says about that in Jn 11.

John 11:1-27 (New American Standard Bible)

 

John 11

The Death and Resurrection of Lazarus

 ¹Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.

 ²It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.

 ³So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."

 ⁴But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

He stated; "This sickness is not to end in death."

One could ask; "If this sickness was not to end in death, was He speaking to the dead when He told Lazarus to come out of the tomb? 

This whole event was for God's glory so The Christ could be glorified by it as well.

How different is this than when you ask a saint or saints to help you? Who gets the glory?

I watch the Catholic posts to this forum. Very often there is a feast day for a saint for their glorification.

Why are there patron saints that have to be involved before a specific request can be asked?

Who gets the glory if the request is granted? God or the patron saint?

Catholics ask why we have a problem with requests to saints at he same time denying you are putting anyone before God.

The manifestation of His Divinity on Mt. Tabor was not done by an interior need that had to be fulfilled before he could speak to the departed just, it was to prepare the Apostles for the trials that were about to come.

"It may prove that the just are alive"

It does. So the claim that Catholics talk with the dead is groundless.

Once again, it proved they are alive but it shows that no one talked to them except Christ and only after He was transformed.

"The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid.."

Well, if they were afraid to talk that doesn't mean they were unable to.

"It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father."

Christ needs no intercessors, no one claimed that he was asking them for their prayers, He's God. The point originally was that Catholics transgress the First Commandment by praying to the just for intercession. I've proved that false.

We finally agree. Christ needs no intercessors. If Catholics believed that, there would be no need for this conversation.

You've proved nothing I have said wrong. Just the opposite. You admit Catholics prey to the just for intercession.  Prayers only go to God where Jesus is the intercessor.

"No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20."

There's no need, we are all one Body in Christ. You can't separate the head from the body (members):

Jn15:5-7 "I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.

Surely the just in heaven are abiding in Christ therefore Christ's words are still applicable to them.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

This shows that Divine help is promised by prayer it doesn't say that the just in heaven can't obtain that same help for those in earth.

What part of Matthew 18:19  "if two or more of you agree on earth" makes you think it includes people in heaven?

BVB

the Lord Jesus had to be transformed before He could talk with them."

God is not restricted by anything, He's God.

I do not agree that God is not restricted by anything.  He has to live by the rules He established. If He does not, He will cease to be God. He does nothing without a purpose. If Jesus didn't have to be transformed, He wouldn't have been.

Was he transfigured when he called Lazarus back from the dead?

Let us see what scripture says about that in Jn 11.

John 11:1-27 (New American Standard Bible)

 

John 11

The Death and Resurrection of Lazarus

 ¹Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.

 ²It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.

 ³So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."

 ⁴But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

He stated; "This sickness is not to end in death."

One could ask; "If this sickness was not to end in death, was He speaking to the dead when He told Lazarus to come out of the tomb? 

This whole event was for God's glory so The Christ could be glorified by it as well.

How different is this than when you ask a saint or saints to help you? Who gets the glory?

I watch the Catholic posts to this forum. Very often there is a feast day for a saint for their glorification.

Why are there patron saints that have to be involved before a specific request can be asked?

Who gets the glory if the request is granted? God or the patron saint?

Catholics ask why we have a problem with requests to saints at he same time denying you are putting anyone before God.

The manifestation of His Divinity on Mt. Tabor was not done by an interior need that had to be fulfilled before he could speak to the departed just, it was to prepare the Apostles for the trials that were about to come.

"It may prove that the just are alive"

It does. So the claim that Catholics talk with the dead is groundless.

Once again, it proved they are alive but it shows that no one talked to them except Christ and only after He was transformed.

"The two untransformed disciples with Him did not talk. It says they were afraid.."

Well, if they were afraid to talk that doesn't mean they were unable to.

"It said He talked with them. It did not say He asked them to intercede for Him with the Father."

Christ needs no intercessors, no one claimed that he was asking them for their prayers, He's God. The point originally was that Catholics transgress the First Commandment by praying to the just for intercession. I've proved that false.

We finally agree. Christ needs no intercessors. If Catholics believed that, there would be no need for this conversation.

You've proved nothing I have said wrong. Just the opposite. You admit Catholics prey to the just for intercession.  Prayers only go to God where Jesus is the intercessor.

"No were can you show anytime He asked anyone but people on earth to pray as in Matthew 18:19-20."

There's no need, we are all one Body in Christ. You can't separate the head from the body (members):

Jn15:5-7 "I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.

Surely the just in heaven are abiding in Christ therefore Christ's words are still applicable to them.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

This shows that Divine help is promised by prayer it doesn't say that the just in heaven can't obtain that same help for those in earth.

What part of Matthew 18:19  "if two or more of you agree on earth" makes you think it includes people in heaven?

BVB