The Accuracy of Scripture

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/05 | James Akin

[JohnnyM]

Care to address the Hebrew terms for morning and evening and what else that they apply to?

I'm not sure what else they apply to, but I do know if someone says there "was evening and morning the first day", then it is a literal evening and morning.

How about addressing whether or not we are still in the seventh day?

We are not.

How about even addressing the scientific fact that the days are getting shorter over time.

Even if this is true.. so????

But first, how about addressing the variable Jewish day.

The jewish 24-hr day is from 6pm to 6pm.

JM

[MarkBsnr]

***Care to address the Hebrew terms for morning and evening and what else that they apply to?

I’m not sure what else they apply to, but I do know if someone says there “was evening and morning the first day”, then it is a literal evening and morning. ***

When does evening start? When does morning start? What is the literal and please back it up with Scripture.

***How about addressing whether or not we are still in the seventh day?

We are not.***

Every other ‘day’ was closed in the bible. Where is the seventh day closed in Scripture?

***How about even addressing the scientific fact that the days are getting shorter over time.

Even if this is true.. so????***

You claimed 24 hours. In the past, the earth had closer to a 25 hour day. Even now, the days are not exactly 24 hours. You have claimed exactness, when it is definitely not exact even now. How can you reconcile this?

***But first, how about addressing the variable Jewish day.

The jewish 24-hr day is from 6pm to 6pm.***

Really? Prove that Adam’s day was from 6 pm to 6 pm. And then tell me how he knew the time. Scripture would be really useful here.

How long was Joshua’s day? I think that you have forgotten to calculate that.

[JohnnyM]

"When does evening start? When does morning start? What is the literal and please back it up with Scripture"

If I was Adam, then evening would have started at sun down and morning at sun up.

Where is the seventh day closed in Scripture?

I am thoroughly aware that the seventh day did not have the evening and morning statement, yet God still thought of it as a 24-hour day.

Ex 20:11 - "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

So if we are still in the seventh day, would God not still be resting??

How can you reconcile this?

OK, now you are just being silly. You are saying that the day is not exactly 24:00:00, so that somehow proves your day age theory. Since a day is not 24 hrs precisely, then that means it could be billions of years. Please.

Let me ask you a question: If you use Peter's passage of one day is a 1000 years, then are you claiming that the creation account was 6000 years in the making? If so, then science would take issue with you. If not, then you are betraying your own Scriptural interpretations.

How long was Joshua’s day?

I dont know. It could have been 24 hours and it could have been longer. I would classify it as a miraculous act of God, which makes either assertion plausible.

JM

[MarkBsnr]

***”When does evening start? When does morning start? What is the literal and please back it up with Scripture”

If I was Adam, then evening would have started at sun down and morning at sun up. ***

Exactly so. But the Jewish days are not 24 hours. Therefore your statements about exactly 24 hours are invalid.

***Where is the seventh day closed in Scripture?

I am thoroughly aware that the seventh day did not have the evening and morning statement, yet God still thought of it as a 24-hour day.

Ex 20:11 - “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”

So if we are still in the seventh day, would God not still be resting?? ***

Perhaps He is. Do you have Scripture to indicate otherwise?

***How can you reconcile this?

OK, now you are just being silly. You are saying that the day is not exactly 24:00:00, so that somehow proves your day age theory. Since a day is not 24 hrs precisely, then that means it could be billions of years. Please.***

It is not my theory; I am not being silly and the Jewish day is not 24 hours exactly. If the day is not 24 hours exactly, then your statements to that effect are wrong.

***Let me ask you a question: If you use Peter’s passage of one day is a 1000 years, then are you claiming that the creation account was 6000 years in the making? If so, then science would take issue with you. If not, then you are betraying your own Scriptural interpretations. ***

I claim nothing here. You claimed rather vociferously that the day was exactly 24 hours and I am endeavouring to prove you wrong from a number of different ways. You are wrong on this, you know.

***How long was Joshua’s day?

I dont know. It could have been 24 hours and it could have been longer. I would classify it as a miraculous act of God, which makes either assertion plausible.***

Scripture says that the sun was stopped for a day. How long was that day, and how do you think that it was measured? Was it indeterminate? Or was it the 24 hours that you have postulated in prior posts?

[JohnnyM]

You can put me on the record that a day is 24 hours. Not only that, but a Jewish day is 24-hours as well.

Even Jesus agrees. John 11:9 - Jesus answered, " Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world."

I guess He is wrong, since there are not exactly, precisely, down to the nanosecond 12 hours in a day.

Perhaps He is. Do you have Scripture to indicate otherwise?

John 5:17 - But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

Now, do you have Scripture to support your claims??

JM

[MarkBsnr]

***You can put me on the record that a day is 24 hours. Not only that, but a Jewish day is 24-hours as well.

Even Jesus agrees. John 11:9 - Jesus answered, “ Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.”***

So is twelve exact or is twelve metaphorical?

Let us see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar
Day
For smaller units of time, see Measurement of hours below.
The Jewish day is of no fixed length. The Jewish day is modeled on the reference to “...there was evening and there was morning...”[5] in the Creation story. Accordingly, it runs from sunset (start of “the evening”) to the next sunset. However, some apply special rules at very high latitudes when the sun remains above or below the horizon for longer than a civil day.[6]

There is no clock in the Jewish scheme, so that a civil clock is used. Though the civil clock incorporates local adoptions of various conventions such as time zones, standard times and daylight saving, these have no place in the Jewish scheme. The civil clock is used only as a reference point - in expressions such as: “Shabbat starts at ...”. The steady progression of sunset around the world and seasonal changes results in gradual civil time changes from one day to the next based on observable astronomical phenomena (the sunset) and not on man-made laws and conventions. Instead of the international date line convention, the antimeridian of Jerusalem is used. (Jerusalem is 35°13’ east of the prime meridian, so the antimeridian is at 144°47’ W, passing through eastern Alaska.)

No fixed time. If there is no fixed time, and miracles such as Joshua’s occurred, then there is no way that you can claim 24 hour exact duration of the first days of Genesis.

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm gives a look into the Jewish Calendar as well.

***Perhaps He is. Do you have Scripture to indicate otherwise?

John 5:17 - But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

Now, do you have Scripture to support your claims??***

Since I did not claim, no I don’t. But where is the end of the seventh day in Scripture?

[nufsed]

Might a heathen comment. It is clear that Jesus is referring to “daylight” (walk without stumbling) when he says a day is 12 hours.

[JohnnyM]

the 12 is literal.

So you have no Scriptural support for your claims about Genesis and many of the assertions you have been making?

JM

[bdeaner]

Recommended reading:
Dialogue on Theistic Evolution vs Young Earth Creationism

[bdeaner]

Excellent points.

[bdeaner]

Might a heathen comment. It is clear that Jesus is referring to “daylight” (walk without stumbling) when he says a day is 12 hours.

Obviously, the amount of daylight per day is variable. That's something we can verify with our own senses. If you go to Alaska, the days are much longer, or much shorter, depending on the time of the year, compared to the rest of the world. On summer solstice the day is much longer than at winter solstice.

So, if Jesus meant 12 literal hours of daylight, it would mean He is either in error or lying, neither which is acceptable to believe as a Christian. Obviously He did not mean it literally.

[JohnnyM]

Theistic evolution is a lie.

Evolution requires death in order for it to progress. Which would mean death and hence sin were in the world prior to Adam coming on the scene.

do you believe Adam evolved? If so, how could sin and death enter the world through him, if it existed prior to his arrival?

JM

[bdeaner]

I believe in the theological truths revealed in Genesis and I am persuaded by the cumulative record of evidence in favor of evolutionary theory. How the two are to be reconciled is something I do not claim to have worked out to every last detail. One thing I am pretty certain of: the universe was not created within the last 6000 years. It just doesn't add up. The empirical evidence does not support young earth creationism. Beyond that, I am fairly open to a variety of possibilities.

Nevertheless, I have some ideas about how one can conceptualize original sin within the perspective of theistic evolution (these are speculative in nature, but can be shown to have a lot of support from a wide variety of converging empirical evidence from a variety of fields of investigation):

Sin and death enter the world through the first human beings, Adam and Eve, through the evolution of the mimetic desire, which is the origin of culture. (There is genetic evidence suggesting that the entire human race can be traced back to a single male and single female, most likely originating in Africa around Ethiopia).

Mimesis is the ability to imitate others. In psychology, we call it "modeling." Evidence suggests that this ability, and also the ability to recognize one's self as distinct from others -- to have a distinct "ego" -- and to engage in symbolic language and thought, when combined, are unique features of human beings that distinguish us from the animals. This ability to imitate, or model, the behavior of others is rooted in our neurobiology, and can be explained by what are now called mirror neurons.

This ability to model is the basis for culture, because we can use it to learn new behaviors without having those behaviors hard-wired by genetic engineering. We move beyond stereotyped, 'instinctive' behavior, into more purpositive and adaptive behavior. Because this ability is so adaptive, once it appears on the scene, the brain begins to evolve very rapidly -- so rapidly, in fact, that human skulls becomes increadingly larger and pregnancy for women more painful (and potentially deadly) as a result, because women's hips, in order to allow for ambulation, can only get so wide to accommodate the bulbous skull needed for the human cortex.

The ability to model creates mimetic desire. This means that we develop the ability to desire what others desire -- to learn to desire by adopting the desires of others. This mimetic desire is evidence in the Bible for example in Adam's temptation to follow Eve -- he adopts her desire for the fruit of the tree as his own desire. Eve, prior to that, had adopted the desire of the serpent.

Why would God creates us to have mimetic desire? So that we could model ourselves after Him and His desires for the Good. In this sense, we are made in His image. However, the serpent, or Satan, was also present in the garden, and so our ability to adopt Satan's desire for evil is also a temptation. When Eve and then Adam adopt Satan's desires to be like God, and eat the fruit, then original sin enters the world. Original sin results when human mimetic desire adopts the desires of Satan rather than the desires of the Lord. Those desires are then passed along to each new generation, causing a wound at the heart of the human soul that we are incapable of healing ourselves-- all further human development is infected by it. The wound is concupiscience, by which we continue to desire things that are evil, and therefore it takes effort and will power to adopt for ourselves the Good that is the Lord's desire for us, which is to model our desires after His. Instead, with Cain and Abel, we see the emergence of envy, and this envy leads to violence -- a violence that results from mimetic desire gone astray. And, from the story of Babel, we learn that sin also results in a disconnection between language and reality, so that humans can no longer speak to one another intelligibly -- the result of a loss of the Holy Spirit that, following it's arrival, gives us the 'tongues' to speak to one another again, as on Pentecost.

These are along the lines of how I take Genesis to be revelation of theological truth, but not a science book. And yet when read in conjunction with science, science and scripture can mutually illuminate the truth. But whereas scripture involves deductive logic -- going from the general principles to application to particulars -- science moves in an inductive direction -- moving from the particulars to identify general principles. We can have faith that with patience, the two movements will and must meet each other in the middle, because 'truth does not contradict truth.'

[MarkBsnr]

***the 12 is literal.***

Fascinating; I have just shown you from Scripture and the methodology of Jewish timekeeping that you are wrong.

***So you have no Scriptural support for your claims about Genesis and many of the assertions you have been making? ***

I thought that my Biblical quotes regarding the exceptions to your claims counted as Scriptural support. Joshua’s day was not 24 hours; the Jewish day is not 24 hours (except perhaps twice per year). Scripture says that you are wrong both OT and NT; the Jewish methodology of timekeeping says that you are wrong.

Therefore...

[MarkBsnr]

***Might a heathen comment. It is clear that Jesus is referring to “daylight” (walk without stumbling) when he says a day is 12 hours.***

Could be. I don’t understand the reference to ‘heathen’, though.

[MarkBsnr]

***Excellent points.***

‘Tis the company I keep, sir, and nothing more. :)

[JohnnyM]

Fascinating; I have just shown you from Scripture and the methodology of Jewish timekeeping that you are wrong.

Take it up with Jesus, then. He was the one who said it.

The Jewish day is 24 hours long. On the equator it is 24 hours. In Alaska, it is 24 hours. At the North Pole it is 24 hours. You are basically making a statement that a day is from sunset to sunset, so in effect if a Jew lived in a place where night or day lasted months, then their "day" would effectively span months, which is ludicrous and absurd.

JM

[MarkBsnr]

***Fascinating; I have just shown you from Scripture and the methodology of Jewish timekeeping that you are wrong.

Take it up with Jesus, then. He was the one who said it. ***

Ah, a literalist. Have you cut off your arm if it caused you to sin? Have you plucked out your eye if it caused you to sin? There are many things that Jesus said that are allegory and metaphorical. The parables were not literally true. Was there actually a Good Samaritan for real? Was the prodigal son real?

***The Jewish day is 24 hours long. On the equator it is 24 hours. In Alaska, it is 24 hours. At the North Pole it is 24 hours. You are basically making a statement that a day is from sunset to sunset, so in effect if a Jew lived in a place where night or day lasted months, then their “day” would effectively span months, which is ludicrous and absurd. ***

Is it?

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/283,2135341/What-is-Halachic-Time-or-an-Halachic-Hour.html says that:

Defining Time

“Halachic time” works differently than the clocks we are used to. In Halachah, time works based on Sha’ot Zmaniyot, “proportional hours” that depend on the season. Halachic hours are not necessarily 60 minutes; instead we take the day, from sunrise until sunset, and divide it into twelve equal parts. Each part constitutes one halachic hour. In the summer this can be up to 75 minutes and in the winter it can be as little as 45 minutes. Midday is the halfway point between sunrise and sunset, and can be quite late if Passover falls out after the onset of Daylight Saving Time.

According to this Jewish source, the Jewish hours vary according to the length of the time between sunset and sunset.

[JohnnyM]

"There are many things that Jesus said that are allegory and metaphorical."

This was not one of them.

This thread has turned into a Proverbs 24 thread.

Prov 24:6 - Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will also be like him

JM

[JohnnyM]

one last comment, then I am done.

Using your unbiblical Halachic calculations, you will notice that the evening hours would adjust for the lack of daylight hours and vice versa, so that you would still end up with 24 hours. If the daylight hour was 45 minutes, then the nighttime hour would be 75 minutes or whatever to compensate to make up a 24 hour day.

JM