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To: Mr Rogers

***It says all things were created BY Him. If God is not the Creator, then you might have a point.***

Again, notice the terminology:
John 1:
1
1 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

Jesus was in the beginning WITH God. This does not indicate divinity. All things came to be THROUGH Him. This does not indicate divinity. Life came to be THROUGH Him. This does not indicate divinity.

The problem is that if you read the NT in a certain fashion, then the divinity of Jesus can be dismissed. Most of the verses that describe the relationship between God the Father and Jesus indicate some sort of subordination. Which, of course, as the Church has taken great pains to point out, is heresy.

Paul goes slightly beyond that in 1 Colossians:
15
6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.

Notice the terminology here, too. All things were created in Him. Not by Him. All things were created through Him and for Him and not by Him.

Again, let me remind you that I believe firmly in the divinity of Jesus; in spite of these passages and because of the Church’s Catechism. Let me also ask you: if Scripture is specifically wrong or ambiguous here, can it also be wrong or ambiguous in other places and therefore it requires the Church to interpret Scripture, and not an individual man?


1,664 posted on 10/24/2009 2:51:25 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Iscool; boatbums; Dr. Eckleburg

BY him. At least, per the ESV.

“16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”

“In him were created (en autwi ektisth).
Paul now gives the reason (oti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (16). It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisth (from ktizw, old verb, to found, to create (Romans 1:25). This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.

Have been created (ektistai).
Perfect passive indicative of ktizw, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe. “

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=col&chapter=001&verse=016

Per Barnes: “Verse 16. For by him were all things created. This is one of the reasons why he is called “the image of God,” and the “firstborn.” He makes God known to us by his creative power, and by the same power in creation shows that he is exalted over all things as the Son of God. The phrase which is here used by the apostle is universal. He does not declare that he created all things in the spiritual kingdom of God, or that he arranged the events of the gospel dispensation, as Socinians suppose, (see Crellius;) but that everything was created by him. A similar form of expression occurs in John 1:3. See Barnes “John 1:3”. There could not possibly be a more explicit declaration, that the universe was created by Christ, than this. As if the simple declaration in the most comprehensive terms were not enough, the apostle goes into a specification of things existing in heaven and earth, and so varies the statement, as if to prevent the possibility of mistake.”

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=col&chapter=001&verse=016

You write, “Again, let me remind you that I believe firmly in the divinity of Jesus; in spite of these passages and because of the Church’s Catechism.”

It didn’t need the Catholic Church’s Catechism for Jesus Christ to be understood as being God. It isn’t something to believe IN SPITE of these passages, for they are painfully clear.

No one in the early church doubted Jesus was/is God. To deny that is to deny Christianity entirely. There was a lot of philosophical debate, trying to understand things God has not revealed, such as the inner workings and meanings of the Trinity.

Scripture wasn’t written as a systematic theology text. It reveals what we need to know for salvation & living rightly before God. This it does, quite sufficiently and clearly.


1,665 posted on 10/24/2009 4:18:08 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MarkBsnr
It's a curious thing that you claim there is no evidence of the Trinity in the scriptures and your religion 'developed' the doctrine 400 years after the fact...

Developed from what??? A premonition??? A dream??? A fortune cookie???

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Notice the terminology here, too. All things were created in Him. Not by Him. All things were created through Him and for Him and not by Him.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

You obviously don't get your information from the Bible...

1,669 posted on 10/24/2009 9:56:09 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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