The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I know what you mean about that warmth. I’ve had it both in the confessional and at home during prayer as well.

When I first read that Mishna passage I thought of purgatory as the lobby.

I once asked why it seems that evil people prosper and good people suffer so and it was explained to me that those evil people were getting things in this world because they weren’t going to be getting rewards in the world to come.

Who knows but I found it an interesting answer.

[annalex]

demeans and very nearly negates the work of Christ on the cross by pronouncing it somehow insufficient to cover the sins of His flock

Not at all. The souls in Purgatory are there because of the redemption that Christ has worked for them, and for no other reason. Were it not for the grace of the Savior, they'd be in hell.

If I at times appear short of patience with some Protestant posters it is this habit to erect, then demolish straw men, which disrupts serious conversations.

[annalex]

in order to keep man spiritually enslaved.

The fear of the pains of purgatory is indeed sometimes used pastorally to motivate the flock who cannot be motivated by the love of God. However, the manner in which some popular pieties attach durations, physical fires and torment to Purgatory is just that, popular pieties. The actual doctrine does not place Purgatory in the physical realm. It is also not to be equated with punishment.

The doctrine of purgatory offers the false hope that man has a chance to be saved after death.

No, the souls in purgatory are already saved.

If there is anything of substance that survives the glaring false premise of the above, in your rather lengthy post, please point it out and I will make another post addressing that.

[annalex]

If you read the thread, you will understand that it is precisely the offering of the blood of Jesus once at the Golgotha that made the purgatory available to us.

In fact, Hebrews 10:10 is not a bad place to start an article explaining the Purgatory.

[Mr Rogers]

No! The building is the CHURCH, not the believer! And the ‘fire’ is a term that merely means the work will be made manifest - and it says so, in the text.

[1000 silverlings]

Nobody "makes himself perfect, ie holy, and the book of Hebrews has no mention of purgatory

Hebrews 10:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The souls in Purgatory are there because of the redemption that Christ has worked for them

Only a partial redemption.

Apparently Christ's work on the cross is insufficient to cleanse Roman Catholics of their trespasses against God. Or perhaps Christ crossed His fingers when He said He had accomplished all that His Father had given Him to do which included not losing any of His flock.

Thankfully, Protestants have a Savior who finishes the good work begun in them.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:18

---

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." -- 1 John 4:10

If I at times appear short of patience with some Protestant posters it is this habit to erect, then demolish straw men, which disrupts serious conversations...

I forgive your impatience, Alex. Don't let anything or anyone upset you. Stay focused. If need be, write things down so you won't forget them. My grandmother says that helps alleviate the frustration that often comes with growing older. Nap.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. The RCC seems to ignore Hebrews entirely.

Ping to 208.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That "there is not a one-to-one relationship between our confession/repentance and our forgiveness" seems to be another hypothesis that the author likes without offering any scriptural support for it.

lol. That's typical RC debate -- state a fallacy as fact which is not based on Scripture and then decry that no one is refuting it with Scripture. Lol.

It's up to YOU to prove with Scripture that God weighs every sin we commit against every confession we make. And you can't. Read Hebrews.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:12-18

Rome distorts the Gospel into barter.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Perhaps you need to read the Hebrew scriptures more closely. I would start with Isaiah 53...

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Perhaps because Jesus was a practicing Jew his whole life and not a Christian and so, I have no reason to try and fit into the Christian box?

If indeed Jesus came as the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, why do The Holy Scriptures proclaim that the Third Temple will be built and sacrifices resumed during the Messianic era?

If you don't mind my asking, are you on the right thread? Are you some sort of messianic Roman Catholic?

[ET(end tyranny)]

Perhaps YOU should read the Hebrew Scriptures in the context of which they were written.

Isaiah 53 JPS	Isaiah 53 KJV
53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of YHWH been revealed?	1   Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.	2   For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
First problem.  The JPS renders the verse in the past tense.  The KJV uses future and present tense.
53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.	3   He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
The JPS uses past tense.  The KJV uses present tense.
These verses describe the amazement of the world when they see the Jewish people redeemed. In particular, these verses describe how the nations "despised" the Jewish people and gave "no regard" for them. The reason it is written in the singular is because the Jews are regarded as one body, called "Israel." There are many instances of the Jewish people being referred to with a singular pronoun throughout the Torah.  Israel gets redeemed as shown in Zechariah 8:23. Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.	4   Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
These verses explain how nations punished Israel for their own reasons.  Throughout the last two thousand years of the Jews' exile from their homeland, a startling pattern emerges. Whenever the people of a gentile country weren't doing well, whether politically or economically, the non-Jews sought to put blame on someone for their ills. Quite often the Jews. From the perspective of the gentile kings speaking in this narrative, "he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" refers to blaming the Jews for everything from economic failure to the Black Death. The easily-used excuse made by the Christians and the Muslims was that the Jews were rejected of G-d. This is the view of the gentile kings being expressed by the second half of the verse.
53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.	5   But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Again the JPS uses the past tense, while the KJV uses past and present tense.
The healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they receive the revelation about the Jews at the End of Days.  The Redemption of Israel.  See Zechariah 8:23 above.
53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.	6   All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This verse is talking again about how the gentile nations had laid their problems on the Jewish people. i.e. inciting violence against the Jews with blood libels, ficticious literature like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.
53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.	7   He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Verse seven prophesizes regarding the many hardships they would endure in their exile. A look at history will prove that these prophecies have already become true. In the 11th century CE Jews were "persecuted and afflicted" by crusaders who brutally tortured and killed Jews in the name of their lord Jesus. In this century the Nazis "led" the Jews "to the slaughter" like a "lamb that is silent before her shearers."
Can verse 7 apply to Yehoshua?  Matthew 26:39 has Yehoshua praying to YHWH to help him avoid his fate, so Yehoshua did open his mouth.  Yehoshua opens his mouth again, while on the cross in Matthew 27:46 saying "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"  So, no, it seems that verse 7 does not apply to Yehoshua.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.	8   He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Having been "exiled" from the "Land of the Living" (the Land of Israel) it appeared to the world that the Jews would die out all together.
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'	9   And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
There are countless stories throughout history, of Jews who were given the alternative to accept Jesus or die by the edge of a sword.  Instead of profaning themselves with conversion they "submitted themselves to the grave" and died the death of a common criminal. Also "wealthy" Jews were executed while "committing no crime," only so that they could robbed of their riches.
53:10 Yet it pleased YHWH to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of YHWH might prosper by his hand:	10   Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
First of all, the word used for 'seed' is zera` zeh'-rah, which refers to physical children. YHWH desired to oppress him (Israel) "because they deserved to be punished for their sins. If the Jews would only "acknowledge" their "guilt" they would be able to see their "offspring and live long days."
53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.	11   He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Here the narration changes from the gentile kings to YHWH Himself. From this point on, the chapter is foretelling the reward that YHWH will grant Israel for enduring the exile and never losing faith in Him  .Verse eleven talks about Israel, and how they will teach all the nations about YHWH.
Does verse 11 speak of Yehoshua? Where in the New Testament is it told that Yehoshua's knowledge vindicated anybody?  "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many" The writings of Paul say that it is Yehoshua's blood that justifies, not Yehoshua's knowledge! So, no, verse 11 does not seem to be about Yehoshua either.
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.	12   Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Verse twelve talks of how the Jews pray for the welfare of the nations they are exiled into.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There is no Biblical support for purgatory which is a heresy that crept into the church centuries after Christ along with other gnostic assaults on the truth.

Purgatory denies the finished work of Christ on the cross. At the moment of our death we will either behold the Triune God in glory or spend eternity in hell regretting our disbelief.

"Superstition is always cruel." -- John Calvin

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Likewise, none of the historic Christian creeds declares the fiction of purgatory to be true.

The Orthodox church denies purgatory exists as do all Protestant churches.

Rome stands alone and in error on this one.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It grows clearer that perhaps you're on the wrong thread.

Christ is the third temple, the mediator of a better covenant.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus...

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:26,28.

---

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." -- Galatians 6:15

That "new creature" is a Christian.

[Just mythoughts]

I think you are inferring things that are NOT in the text. The enmity between snake and man, from mankind’s perspective, stems from the fact that in general, snakes are pests, and sometimes dangerous pests. From a snake’s perspective, it is an animal without the ability to reason and, thus, it acts on natural instincts – it must eat to survive, and its main job is to look for sustenance while protecting itself from predators. The respective references to seed/offspring, point to mankind relative to Eve, and the family of snakes relative to the serpent. This may be an early account of deception and disobedience, but it isn’t Messianic. Nothing in this verse refers explicitly to the Messiah. This verse describes the general notion that people will have a dislike for snakes and hit them in the head, while snakes will bite people in their feet. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I will try again to respond, as what I thought got submitted to you got lost in the 'air'.

The following is the declaration you made regarding there NOT being any verses in the Hebrew Scriptures .......

For the same reason that there are no verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that clearly state that a Messiah must be sacrificed as a blood sacrifice for the atonement of all mankind, and there aren't any verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that state that the crucified Messiah must be resurrected from the dead?

I pointed to you the first prophecy given to any who would take the instruction.

My inferences are of non-importance.

Christ is the only one whose 'heels being bruised' has any relevance for any who seeks to attain life eternal. And Eve was called Eve because the name means mother of all living. And it was through her offspring to offspring where the lineage to Christ can traced. Christ was in that Garden of Eden symbolically as the tree of life. Without Him none will attain life eternal.

John 1:1 Makes Genesis, which means 'In the beginning', part of the modern days called 'NEW Testament'. John says in 1:1 In the beginning (genesis) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So IF this be what it says then God is giving us the instruction of what He wanted us to build our Christianity upon from the beginning or from the 'Genesis'. Thus it would be an empty instruction IF Christ was His Savior to be sent in flesh as Paul says in Hebrews 2:14 to partake of flesh and blood same as the children for the purpose of bruising that head of the serpent. Not talking about a literal snake but figuratively of the state of degradation the devil was placed because of what he had seduced and deceived The Adam and Eve into participating. That sin that brought death into this flesh age. (IICorinthians 11:1-4)

We are told in Ezekiel 29 and Isaiah 14 about the creation of the 'serpent' (a role/title name and state of degradation he would only be allowed to fulfill) his rebellion and his judgment to die for his sin.

Paul again in Hebrews 2:14 tells us the inference of one aspect of what God told the 'serpent' in Genesis 3:15 means.

We have already been told in Genesis 2:9 that Christ was in the garden as is represented by what He symbolizes "the tree of life" and we are told that after the 'sin' = death of flesh in Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. After Christ came to this earth born of woman in a flesh body and then was sacrificed He is also called the 'bread of life'.

[Kansas58]

You are wrong on the Orthodox.

They do not ALL use the term “purgatory” but they do believe in the possibility of purification after death, and they have no problem with, and encourage, prayer for the dead.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/pugatory_orthodox_church_catholic_church.htm

[Iscool]

Are you a Biblical exegete? Do you even know the original languages, or are you just repeating what you heard someone else say? When I do my preparations for Sunday, I translate from the original languages, and I don't have to depend upon an English translation. I do, however, compare my translation with various other translations, and I often compare the Greek with the Vulgata.

So where does a fella like me get his hands on one of these copies of the original languages???

How is it that after thousands of years, the Catholic church has never printed a copy of the bible in the English language composed of the originals???