The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[bdeaner]

God created man that he might possess his Creator forever in the beatific vision. Those who die in the state of enmity toward God are deprived of this happiness. Between these extremes are people who are neither estranged from God nor wholly dedicated to Him when they die. What will be their lot after death?

The response of faith is that nothing defiled can enter heaven (Rev 21:27), and therefore anyone less than perfect must first be cleansed before he can be admitted to the vision of God.

If this doctrine of Catholicism is less strenuously opposed than the one on hell, over the centuries it has nevertheless become something of a symbol of Rome. Historically, the Reformation was occasioned by a dispute over indulgences, with stress on indulgences for the souls in purgatory. Since that time, the existence of an intermediate state between earth and heaven has remained a stumbling block to reunion and its final acceptance by the Protestant churches would mean a reversal of four hundred years of divergence.

Too often the eschatology of the Catholic Church is considered her own private domain, when actually the whole of Eastern Orthodoxy subscribes (substantially) to Catholic teaching on the Last Things, including the doctrine on purgatory.

Those In Purgatory

When we speak of the souls of the just in purgatory we are referring to those that leave the body in the state of sanctifying grace and are therefore destined by right to enter heaven. Their particular judgment was favorable, although conditional: provided they are first cleansed to appear before God. The condition is always fulfilled.

The poor souls in purgatory still have the stains of sin within them. This means two things. First, it means that the souls have not yet paid the temporal penalty due, either for venial sins, or for mortal sins whose guilt was forgiven before death. It may also mean the venial sins themselves, which were not forgiven either as to guilt or punishment before death. It is not certain whether the guilt of venial sins is strictly speaking remitted after death, and if so, how the remission takes place.

We should also distinguish between the expiatory punishments that the poor souls in purgatory pay and the penalties of satisfaction which souls in a state of grace pay before death. Whereas before death a soul can cleanse itself by freely choosing to suffer for its sins, and can gain merit for this suffering, a soul in purgatory can not so choose and gains no merit for the suffering and no increase in glory. Rather, it is cleansed according to the demands of Divine Justice.

We are not certain whether purgatory is a place or a space in which souls are cleansed. The Church has never given a definite answer to this question. The important thing to understand is that it is a state or condition in which souls undergo purification.

The Catholic practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead is known as offering suffrages. These suffrages are offered both by the individuals and by the Church. They are intended to obtain for the poor soul, either partial or total remission of punishment still to be endured.

Who are the faithful that can pray effectively for the poor souls? They are primarily all baptized Christians but may be anyone in a state of grace. At least the state of grace is probably necessary to gain indulgences for the dead.

The angels and saints in heaven can also help these souls in purgatory and obtain a mitigation of their pains. When they do so, the process is not by way of merit or of satisfaction, but only through petition. A study of the Church's official prayers reveals that saints and the angelic spirits are invoked for the Church Suffering (i.e., those in purgatory), but always to intercede and never otherwise.

Contrary Views

Since patristic times there have been many who have denied the existence of purgatory and have claimed it is useless to pray for the dead. Arius, a fourth-century priest of Alexandria who claimed that Christ is not God, was a prime example. In the Middle Ages, the Albigenses, Waldenses, and Hussites all denied the existence of purgatory. Generally, the denial by these different groups of heretics was tied in with some theoretical position on grace, or merit, or the Church's authority. But until the Reformation, there was no major reaction to Catholic doctrine on the existence of purgatory.

With the advent of the Reformers, every major Protestant tradition — the Reformed (Calvinist), Evangelical (Lutheran), Anglican (Episcopal) and Free Church (Congregational) — took issue with Roman Catholicism to disclaim a state of purification between death and celestial glory.

John Calvin set the theological groundwork for the disclaimer, which he correctly recognized to be a part of the Protestant idea that salvation comes from grace alone in such a way that it involves no human cooperation:

"We should exclaim with all our might, that purgatory is a pernicious fiction of Satan, that it makes void the cross of Christ, that it intolerably insults the Divine Mercy, and weakens and overturns our faith. For what is their purgatory, but a satisfaction for sins paid after death by the souls of the deceased? Thus the notion of satisfaction being overthrown, purgatory itself is immediately subverted from its very foundation."

It has been fully proved that the blood of Christ is the only satisfaction, expiation, and purgation for the sins of the faithful. What, then, is the necessary conclusion but that purgation is nothing but a horrible blasphemy against Christ? I pass by the sacrilegious pretences with which it is daily defended, the offences, which it produces in religion, and the other innumerable evils, which we see to have come from such a source of impiety."
Institutes of the Christian Religion, III, 5.

Calvin's strictures have been crystallized in the numerous Reformed Confessions of Faith, like the Westminster Confession of the Presbyterian Church. "Prayer is to be made," says the Confession, "for things lawful, and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter; but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death" (Chapter XXI, Section 4).

In the Augsburg Confession of the Lutheran churches, it is stated that "the Mass is not a sacrifice to remove the sins of others, whether living or dead, but should be a Communion in which the priest and others receive the sacrament for themselves" (Chapter XXIV, The Mall).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Communion, which in the United States is the Protestant Episcopal Church, are equally clear. They place the existence of purgatory in the same category with image worship and invocation of the saints:

"The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God" (Article XXII).

Standard formularies of the Free Church tradition simply omit mention of purgatory from their Confessions of Faith, with a tendency in the United Church of Christ towards universalism. Thus life everlasting is univocally equated with blessedness, the "never-ending life of the soul with God," which means "the triumph of righteousness (in) the final victory of good over evil, which must come because God wills it" (Christian Faith and Purpose: A Catechism, Boston, p. 21).

A fine testimony to the ancient faith in purgatory occurs in the authoritative Confession of Dositheus, previously referred to. This creed of the Orthodox Church was produced by a synod convened in Jerusalem in 1672 by Patriarch Dositheus. The occasion for the creed was Cyril Lucaris, who had been elected Patriarch of Alexandria in 1602 and of Constantinople in 1621, Lucaris was strongly influenced by Protestantism and especially by Reformed theology. His Protestant predilections aroused the opposition of his own people. He was finally strangled by the Turks, who thought he was guilty of treason.

The Confession of Dositheus defines Orthodoxy over against Protestantism. It is the most important Orthodox confession of modern times:

"We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to each hath wrought. For when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For, after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation. Such as though involved in mortal sins have not departed in despair but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to their sins which they have committed.

But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness through the prayers of the priests and the good works which the relative of each perform for their departed — especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing the highest degree — which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. It is not known, of course, when they will be released. We know and believe that there is deliverance for them from their dire condition, before the common resurrection and judgment, but we do not know when" (Decree XVII).

An unexpected development in contemporary Episcopalianism is the verbal admission of Article XXII of the Thirty-nine Articles alongside a belief in prayers for the dead sanctioned by the American Book of Common Prayer. Among others, one oration reads: "O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered, accept our prayers on behalf of the soul of thy servant, and grant him (her) an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints" (p. 34). Masses for the faithful departed are also offered in the High Church Episcopalianism.

Biblical Elements Of Purgatory

The definition of the Catholic Church on the existence of purgatory is derived from Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition, which Christ promised would enable the Church to interpret Scripture without error. In particular, the Church relied on the writings of the early Fathers in defining this article of faith.

The classic text in the Old Testament bearing witness to the belief of the Jewish people in the existence of a state of purgation where souls are cleansed before entering heaven is found in the Book of Maccabees. Judas Maccabeus (died 161 BC) was a leader of the Jews in opposition to Syrian dominance, and Hellenizing tendencies among his people. He resisted a Syrian army and renewed religious life by rededicating the temple; the feast of Hanukkah celebrates this event.

In context, Judas had just completed a successful battle against the Edomites and was directing the work of gathering up the bodies of the Jews who had fallen in battle. As the bodies were picked up, it was found that every one of the deceased had, under his shirt, amulets of the idols of Jamnia, which the Law forbade the Jews to wear. Judas and his men concluded that this was a divine judgment against the fallen, who died because they had committed this sin of disobedience. The sacred writer describes what happened next:

"So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden and fell to supplication, begging that the sin that had been committed should be wholly blotted out.

And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, after having seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took a collection, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, each man contributing, and sent it to Jerusalem, to provide a sin offering, acting very finely and properly in taking account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead; or if it was through reward destined for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be set free from their sin" (2 Mac 12:42-46).

The Maccabean text shows that Judas, and the Jewish priests and people believed that those who died in peace could be helped by prayers and sacrifices offered by the living. Luther denied the canonicity of seven books of the Old Testament (the Deuterocanonical books), including the two books of Maccabees. But even if the text were not inspired, as an authentic witness to Jewish history in pre-Christian times it testifies to the common belief in a state of purgation after death and in the ability to help the faithful departed by prayers of intercession on their behalf. Jewish tradition since the time of Christ supports this view.

There are also certain passages in the New Testament that the Church commonly cites as containing evidence of the existence of purgatory. In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warns the Pharisees that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next (Mt. 12:32). Here Christ recognizes that there exists a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins, which were pardoned as to guilt in the world, is forgiven. St. Paul also affirms the reality of purgatory. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says that "the fire will assay the quality of everyone's work," and "if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor 3:13, 15). These words clearly imply some penal suffering. Since he connects it so closely with the divine judgment, it can hardly be limited to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purification through suffering after death, namely in purgatory.

The Fathers On Purgatory

During the first four centuries of the Christian era, the existence of purgatory was commonly taught in the Church, as seen in its universal practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead.

The most ancient liturgies illustrate the custom in such prayers as the following: "Let us pray for our brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ, that the God of the highest charity towards men, who has summoned the soul of the deceased, may forgive him all his sin and, rendered well-disposed and friendly towards him, may call him to the assembly of the living" (Apostolic Constitutions, 8:41).

Equally ancient are the inscriptions found in the catacombs, which provide numerous examples of how the faithful offered prayers for their departed relatives and friends. Thus we read from engravings going back to the second century such invocations as: "Would that God might refresh your spirit . . . Ursula, may you be received by Christ . . . Victoria, may your spirit be at rest in good . . . Kalemir, may God grant peace to your spirit and that of your sister, Hildare . . . Timothy, may the eternal life be yours in Christ."

Writers before Augustine explicitly teach that souls stained with temporal punishment due to sins are purified after death. St. Cyprian (died 258) taught that penitents who die before the Sacrament of Penance must perform the remainder of any atonement required in the other world, while martyrdom counts as full satisfaction (Epistola 55, 20). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) described the sacred rites of the Liturgy with the comment, "Then we pray also for the dead, our holy fathers, believing that this will be a great help for the souls of those for whom the prayer is offered" (Catechesis, 32).

St. Augustine not only presumed the existence of purgatory as a matter of divine faith, but also testified to this belief from the Scriptures. Among other statements, he said, "some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more of less devotion, they shall be more of less quickly delivered from the flames." He further declared that the deceased are "benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the Sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms to the Church on their behalf. But these services are of help only to those lives had earned such merit that suffrages of this could assist them. For there is a way of life that is neither so good as to dispense with these services after death, nor so bad that after death they are of not benefit" (Enchiridion 69, 110).

Augustine's most beautiful tribute to purgatory occurs in the book of his Confessions, where he describes the death of his mother Monica and recalls her final request, "Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are." Augustine complied with his mother's desire and admits that he did not weep "even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her" (Confessions, IX, 11).

After the Patristic period, the Church did not significantly develop the doctrine of purgatory for many centuries. Then in the twelfth century, Pope Innocent IV (1243-54), building upon the writings of the Fathers, expounded in detail upon the doctrine. In context, Innocent was concerned with reuniting the Greek Church which had been in schism since the Photian scandal in the ninth century. He appealed to the Greek's belief in a state of purgation as a point of departure from which to bring them into communion with Rome. In a doctrinal letter to the apostolic delegate in Greece, he discussed the common belief:

"It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church.

Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.

For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire — not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life" (DB, 456).

The Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274, used the teaching of Pope Innocent IV in its formal declaration on purgatory. This declaration stated:

"If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments . . . The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful."

The next major pronouncement by the Catholic Church regarding purgatory came shortly before the Council of Trent, from Pope Leo X who condemned a series of propositions of Martin Luther, including the following:

"Purgatory cannot be proved from the Sacred Scripture which is the Canon. The souls in purgatory are not sure about their salvation, a least not all of them. Moreover it has not been proved from reason or from the Scriptures that they are beyond the state of merit or of growing in charity" (DB 777-778).

The Council of Trent went further, including in the Decree on Justification an anathema of those who deny the debt of temporal punishment, remissible either in this life or in the next:

"If anyone says that, after receiving the grace of justification the guilt of any repentant sinner is remitted and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such a way that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this life or in purgatory, before the gate to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema" (DB 840).

Fifteen years after the Decree on Justification, and shortly before its closing sessions, the Council of Trent issued a special Decree on Purgatory, as well as corresponding decrees on sacred images, invocation of the saints and indulgences. It was a summary statement that referred to the previous definition and that cautioned against some of the abuses that gave rise to the Protestant opposition:

"The Catholic Church, by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, in accordance with Sacred Scripture and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, has taught in the holy councils, and most recently in this ecumenical council, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.

Therefore, this holy council commands the bishops to be diligently on guard that the true doctrine about purgatory, the doctrine handed down from the holy Fathers and the sacred councils, be preached everywhere, and that Christians be instructed in it, believe it, and adhere to it.

But let the more difficult and subtle controversies, which neither edify nor generally cause any increase of piety, be omitted from the ordinary sermons to the poorly instructed. Likewise, they should not permit anything that is uncertain or anything that appears to be false to be treated in popular or learned publications. And should forbid as scandalous and injurious to the faithful whatever is characterized by a kind of curiosity and superstition, or is prompted by motives of dishonorable gain" (DB 983).

Most recently, the Second Vatican Council in its Constitution on the Church renewed the teaching of previous councils on eschatology, including the doctrine of purgatory. "This sacred Council," it declared, "accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who, having died, are still being purified . . . At the same time, in conformity with our own pastoral interests, we urge all concerned, if any abuses, excesses or defects have crept in here or there, to do what is in their power to remove or correct them, and to restore all things to a fuller praise of Christ and of God" (Chapter VII, no. 51).

Meaning Of The Doctrine

Although not defined doctrine, it is certain that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

Their suffering is intense on two counts: (1) the more something is desired, the more painful its absence, and the faithful departed intensely desire to possess God now that they are freed from temporal cares and no longer held down by the spiritual inertia of the body; (2) they clearly see that their deprivation was personally blameworthy and might have been avoided if only they had prayed and done enough penance during life.

However, there is no comparison between this suffering and the pains of hell. The suffering of purgatory is temporary and therefore includes the hope of one day seeing the face of God; it is borne with patience since the souls realize that purification is necessary and they do not wish to have it otherwise; and it is accepted generously, out of love for God and with perfect submission to His will.

Moreover, purgatory includes the pain of sense. Some theologians say that not every soul is punished with this further pain, on the premise that it may be God's will to chastise certain people only with the pain of loss.

Theologically, there is less clarity about the nature of this pain of sense. Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of "a transitory fire" (DB 456). Nevertheless, at the union council of Florence, the Greeks were not required to abandon the opposite opinion, that the fire of purgatory is not a physical reality.

We do not know for certain how intense are the pains in purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas held that the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life. St. Bonaventure said the worst suffering after death was greater than the worst on earth, but the same could not be said regarding the least purgatorial suffering.

Theologians commonly hold, with St. Robert Bellarmine, that in some way the pains of purgatory are greater than those on earth. At least objectively the loss of the beatific vision after death, is worse than its non-possession now. But on the subjective side, it is an open question. Probably the pains in purgatory are gradually diminished, so that in the latter stages we could not compare sufferings on earth with the state of a soul approaching the vision of God.

Parallel with their sufferings, the souls also experience intense spiritual joy. Among the mystics, St. Catherine of Genoa wrote, "It seems to me there is no joy comparable to that of the pure souls in purgatory, except the joy of heavenly beatitude." There are many reasons for this happiness. They are absolutely sure of their salvation. They have faith, hope and great charity. They know themselves to be in divine friendship, confirmed in grace and no longer able to offend God.

Although the souls in purgation perform supernatural acts, they cannot merit because they are no longer in the state of wayfarers, nor can they increase in supernatural charity. By the same token, they cannot make satisfaction, which is the free acceptance of suffering as compensation for injury, accepted by God on account of the dignity of the one satisfying. The sufferings in purgatory are imposed on the departed, without leaving them the option of "free acceptance" such as they had in mortal life. They can only make "satispassion" for their sins, by patiently suffering the demand of God's justice.

The souls in purgatory can pray, and, since impetration is the fruit of prayer, they can also impetrate. The reason is that impetration does not depend on strict justice as in merit, but on divine mercy. Moreover, the impetratory power of their prayers depends on their sanctity.

It is therefore highly probable that the poor souls can impetrate a relaxation of their own (certainly of other souls') sufferings. But they do not do this directly; only indirectly in obtaining from God the favor that the Church might pray for them and that prayers offered by the faithful might be applied to them.

However, it is not probable but certain that they can pray and impetrate on behalf of those living on earth. They are united with the Church Militant by charity in the Communion of Saints. At least two councils approved the custom of invoking the faithful departed. According to the Council of Vienne, they "assist us by their suffrages." And in the words of the Council of Utrecht, "We believe that they pray for us to God." St. Bellarmine wrote at length on the efficacy of invoking the souls in purgatory. The Church has formally approved the practice, as in the decree of Pope Leo XIII granting an indulgence for any prayer in which the intercession of the faithful departed is petitioned (Acta Sanctae Sedis, 1889-90, p.743).

A Problem

A major problem arises regarding the forgiveness of venial sins in a person who is dying in the state of grace. When and how are they remitted? Is the forgiveness before death? If so, by what right? What has the person done to deserve forgiveness, since it is not likely God would remove the guilt of sins that were not repented of. Or is it after death? But then how can this take place, since ex hypothesi the person can no longer merit or truly satisfy, but can only suffer to remove the reatus poenae

According to one theory (Alexander of Hales), venial sins are always removed in this life through the grace of final perseverance, even without an act of contrition. Remission takes place "in the very dissolution of body and soul," when concupiscence is also extinguished. Few theologians look on this opinion favorably, both because there is nothing in the sources to suggest that final perseverance remits guilt, and because everything indicates the need for some human counterpart in the remission of sin.

Others claim (e.g., St. Bonaventure) that forgiveness occurs in purgatory itself by a kind of "accidental merit" which allows for the removal of guilt and not only satispassion in virtue of Divine Justice. If anything, this theory is less probable than the foregoing because it presumes there is a possibility of merit after death.

Blessed Dun Scotus and the Franciscan school say the deletion takes place either in purgatory or at the time of death. If in purgatory, it is on the assumption that the expiating venial sins is nothing more than remitting the penalty they deserve; if at the time of death, it could be right at the moment the soul leaves the body or an instant after. In any case, Scotists postulate that remission occurs because of merits previously gained during life on earth. This position is not much favored because it seems to identify habitual sin with its penalty and claim that venial sins are remissible without subjective penance.

The most common explanation is that venial sins are remitted at the moment of death, through the fervor of a person's love of God and sorrow for his sins. For although a soul on leaving the body can no longer merit or make real satisfaction, it can retract its sinful past. Thus, it leaves its affection for sin and, without increasing in sanctifying grace or removing any penalty (as happens in true merit), it can have deleted the reatus culpae The latter is incompatible with the exalted love of God possessed by a spirit that leaves the body in divine friendship but stained with venial faults.

[boatbums]

Well see post 150. I answered one of your questions. I also posted about Messainic prophesies. You don’t have to go to the back of the bus or the corner. It just seemed we were heading way off topic which happens.

I hope your feelings aren’t hurt, because it sure wasn’t my intention.

[Marysecretary]

That’s right, Jmouse. Thanks.

[Marysecretary]

And how many works are enough if folks need them to get into heaven? Faith is the way in. Works that God planned for us from the beginning are the works that He wants us to do. Living a godly life is the ultimate work...

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think in 159 that you commented on one of my comments at the end which wasn't a question.

Here is the question.

If indeed Jesus came as the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, why do The Holy Scriptures proclaim that the Third Temple will be built and sacrifices resumed during the Messianic era?

[boatbums]

Re: post 174.

I don’t mind a little personal sharing. I gave the example using ‘a person’ term, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t think it applied to me as well, wouldn’t I? I would hope that in the forty years I have been saved I have grown in my faith and that others see Christ in me. That is certainly something I aim for. Do I ever mess up? Of course, I am a human after all. Like Paul, the flesh and spirit natures are in a wrestling match. Have I gotten wiser over time, has God deepened my faith by trials? Oh, yes, absolutely. I went through times in my youth where I did things I am not proud of, that cause me shame and that I will always regret. I never stopped believing, though. I never denied the Lord Jesus. But just like the prodigal son’s father, the Lord taught me that He never stopped loving me, never stopped waiting for me to return, never withheld His forgiveness and I never stopped being his child.

Do I still mess up? Yeah, but not like before. And I hope from what He taught me by allowing me to go through those trials I will not fall into the same traps again. When I sin, I know I can go directly to him at any time, and ask his forgiveness.

Did this help?

[boatbums]

Can you give me a verse or two about what you are asking?

I know that another physical temple will exist because THE anti-christ will go in and sit down to declare that he is God. In the New Jerusalem, there is also a temple mentioned and a temple in heaven but they are symbolic of the place of the throne of God. The seven angels with the seven plagues that are to be poured out upon the earth during the last half of the tribulation proceed out of the temple to deliver the vials of God’s wrath upon the earth.

At the end of the book of Revelation, John saw that there was no more temple because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are now the temple, Rev. 21:22

[Nosterrex]

That person would not be a Christian. The entire life of a Christian is one of repentance. That person is lost. I can train a parrot to say that Jesus is Lord. This has nothing to do with the doctrine of purgatory. You are either in Christ or not. There is no third option.

[bdeaner]

I don’t mind a little personal sharing. I gave the example using ‘a person’ term, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t think it applied to me as well, wouldn’t I?

Well, certainly -- although I did not mean to suggest or imply you are a hypocrite. I took your statement to imply that, just as another person's good works is a testimony of his or her faith, so your good works are a testimony of your faith. But when you frame it that way, even your good works are understood from the perspective of the other person -- as a testimony or as evidence of faith.

So, as a follow up question, I was asking about sanctification from a different perspective -- a first-person, "me" perspective -- regarding how sanctifying grace operating in one's life is also evidence that one's faith is true. If I find myself acting in ways that are Christ-like -- by the grace of God -- it is a testimony that my own faith is true. Right?

And a byproduct of that righteousness of good works through the grace of God, which follows upon my genuine faith, is a genuine, enduring and unshakeable joy. I think that's our taste of heaven in this life -- just a taste -- a mere shadow of the beatific vision.

I went through times in my youth where I did things I am not proud of, that cause me shame and that I will always regret. I never stopped believing, though. I never denied the Lord Jesus. But just like the prodigal son’s father, the Lord taught me that He never stopped loving me, never stopped waiting for me to return, never withheld His forgiveness and I never stopped being his child.

I can certainly relate to your story! What I find particularly interesting is the shame and regret you describe. Most truly evil people I know -- people who do not know God and have rejected the Lord as their savior -- do not feel regret or shame over sin. But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith.

Yet, looking at my own life, I can often find myself like Peter who doubted Christ and began to sink into the waves after walking upon the water, When my faith falters, I can give in to temptation -- and I can become claimed instead by sin, because Satan is real and He wants us to fall so that He can claim us. However, when I do fall into temptation, because I am saved by Christ, the Lord gives me the grace to suffer as a consequence of the sin. I suffer the guilt and regret of having transgressed the will of Abba, who is the source of all that is Good and Worthy. And in fact, it is through that suffering that I often find myself on my knees, returning to an even deeper faith, having learned once again that I cannot do it on my own, but can only be sanctified by His blood, through His grace operating in my life.

What I just described is "Purgatory." I am saved; I am justified by my faith in Christ, and yet I am capable, as a result of temptation, of falling into sin. But, as someone who has faith, my sin has consequences -- the 'fire' that is the anguish of guilt and shame. This suffering is beneficent -- it is essentially a gift from the Lord that assists me in the process of growing closer to Him and aoviding further temptation by the Devil. It helps me to become more like Him, so that I can serve Him as a member of His Body, doing His will, and to the extent that I fulfill this testimony of my faith, I experience a heavenly joy -- the joy of obedience to His will.

The Catholic Church is neutral with regard to whether purgatory is a state or place. I'm inclined to believe it it primarily a state of mind, similar to what I have described: the fire of purification that the Lord uses to teach us the practical wisdom of learning good from evil, through the joy that comes from goodness and the anguish that follows participation in evil.

Hell, on the other hand, is a total loss of hope in redemption -- something that, as long as we are alive, is difficult to fathom, but horrible to contemplate.

How does this fit with your own walk with Christ? Similar, different? How?

[bdeaner]

That person would not be a Christian. The entire life of a Christian is one of repentance. That person is lost. I can train a parrot to say that Jesus is Lord. This has nothing to do with the doctrine of purgatory. You are either in Christ or not. There is no third option.

Please see post #188 and see if my description fits your own experience of walking with Christ. Is my experience different than yours? If so, how? Let's try not to get too bogged down in words like "Purgatory" and see if we can describe salvation operating in our lives. I suspect there is more common ground than we realize -- since after all we are following the same Lord. My understanding of "purgatory" is not necessarily a place somewhere, but a process or state through which we are cleansed of sin -- in this life and possibly the afterlife. It is first and foremost a mental anguish that results from having sinned -- a regret for having offended our beloved Lord. Think of it like those ribbed thunder strips on the shoulder of a highway -- states of mind, like the thunder strips, that tell us, through the grace of our Lord, when we are getting off track and that help to keep us on the road. I have a sense that you probably have this common experience, but just would not use the word "purgatory" to name it. Yes? Or if not, perhaps you can explain. Look forward to your clarification.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think what you wrote is spot on. As a former Catholic I had wondered about the confessional. Why have it? We can go directly to YHWH with our confession, our repentence and our prayers for forgiveness.

Then it occurred to me that at times our anguish and shame and guilt can be so strong that people may need the verbal reassurance that their sin is forgiven, because they may have a difficult time forgiving themselves of their transgression.

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

[ET(end tyranny)]

Something I meant to ask before.

Do you think 'glow' or 'radiance' that Moses had after being in the presence of YHWH may have been attributed to a 'cleansing'?

[annalex]

no time does it suggest that the believer is punished or put to fire to cleanse him from any remaining sin and prepare him for Heaven

Purgatory is about purification, not punishment, so indeed the passage does not suggest that. However, man is likened to a building built of both noble and base material, and the base material burns off; the building is then freed of "the stubble", so in the analogy that St. Paul is giving us, the man who is the building is cleansed. The building materials are analogized to man's work, and some work is sinful. So that is sin that is burned off as stubble. Finally, the man is saved in the end of that process, so it does prepare him for heaven.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Found some more that might interest you.

A Mishnah passage says, “This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall.” The tractate Moed Katan teaches, “This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home.” Yet it is also emphasized that this world provides the ability and privilege of doing good works and performing the mitzvot:

There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]

Maimonides:
In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies — like the ministering angels... The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)

Gehinnom is the postmortem destination of unrighteous Jews and Gentiles. In one reference, the souls in Gehinnom are punished for up to 12 months. After the appropriate period of purification, the righteous continue on to Gan Eden (Rabbi Akiba and Babylonian Talmud, tractate Eduyot 2:10). The wicked endure the full year of punishment then are either annihilated (”After 12 months, their body is consumed and their soul is burned and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous (Rosh Hashanah 17a)”) or continue to be punished.

This belief is the basis for the Jewish practice of mourning and asking blessings on deceased loved ones for only 11 months (one would not wish to imply that the departed needed the full 12 months of purification).

[bdeaner]

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

I agree with orthodox Catholic teaching, which holds that direct contrition to the Lord, if pure, is sufficient for forgiveness. Yet, as you have noted, there is a very special grace that comes with participation in the sacrament of confession. Regular Confession, at least once per year, especially during Lent, is an obligation in the Church.

I was a fundamentalist Christian before I converted to Catholicism, and, speaking purely from personal experience, the sacrament of confession truly has been a blessing in my life. Talking to God in private and asking for forgiveness is all well and good, but it simply does not compare with speaking anonymously to another person, but knowing that the Lord hears you and in persona Christi is expressing His forgiveness directly to you through the voice of the priest. I am often moved to tears; and not always, but often feel a warmth generated throughout my body -- a feeling fundamentalists will be familiar with if they have ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else quite like it. And there is also a sense of certainty that I have been forgiven--and a sense of purity and a freedom from temptation--that results from regular Confession that I had never known before.

I practicaly had to be dragged kicking and screaming into my first Confession, because it was a concept I had been very opposed to as an anti-Catholic fundamentalist. But now I am a true believer. It really is something 'out of this world.' I try to go about once a month, and now might try going even more frequently, because I just benefit so much from it -- especially with the freedom it gives me from further temptations. There is a strength of will that comes from the process that is difficult to describe, because it is not human -- it is a supernatural grace operating in the process -- a real treasure.

[bdeaner]

How do you view the confessional vs going directly to YHWH?

I agree with orthodox Catholic teaching, which holds that direct contrition to the Lord, if pure, is sufficient for forgiveness. Yet, as you have noted, there is a very special grace that comes with participation in the sacrament of confession. Regular Confession, at least once per year, especially during Lent, is an obligation in the Church.

I was a fundamentalist Christian before I converted to Catholicism, and, speaking purely from personal experience, the sacrament of confession truly has been a blessing in my life. Talking to God in private and asking for forgiveness is all well and good, but it simply does not compare with speaking anonymously to another person, but knowing that the Lord hears you and in persona Christi is expressing His forgiveness directly to you through the voice of the priest. I am often moved to tears; and not always, but often feel a warmth generated throughout my body -- a feeling fundamentalists will be familiar with if they have ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There is nothing else quite like it. And there is also a sense of certainty that I have been forgiven--and a sense of purity and a freedom from temptation--that results from regular Confession that I had never known before.

I practicaly had to be dragged kicking and screaming into my first Confession, because it was a concept I had been very opposed to as an anti-Catholic fundamentalist. But now I am a true believer. It really is something 'out of this world.' I try to go about once a month, and now might try going even more frequently, because I just benefit so much from it -- especially with the freedom it gives me from further temptations. There is a strength of will that comes from the process that is difficult to describe, because it is not human -- it is a supernatural grace operating in the process -- a real treasure.

[bdeaner]

Do you think 'glow' or 'radiance' that Moses had after being in the presence of YHWH may have been attributed to a 'cleansing'?

Interesting! Never thought about it before, but it makes sense.

[boatbums]

Your words pretty much match what I said. Your original post on Purgatory, though, does not claim it is only a state of mind in this present life on earth. I don't think anyone would have heartburn if this was truly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, but it isn't really.

The main reason so many non-RCC people object to the teaching is because it implies we must suffer for our sins after we die and that faith in Christ's sacrifice on the cross, as the complete payment for sin, is not enough.

If you truly believe: But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith. I rejoice because you really get do it.

[bdeaner]

A Mishnah passage says, “This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall.” The tractate Moed Katan teaches, “This world is only like a hotel. The world to come is like a home.” Yet it is also emphasized that this world provides the ability and privilege of doing good works and performing the mitzvot:

Great stuff. I am immediately reminded of Christ's parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew 22.

The reference to the three groups judgement day in the second quote also matches the wedding banquet parable -- there are those who reject the invitation, those called but who are improperly dressed (one assumes they could change), and those who are called and remain at the banquet.

[boatbums]

Make that “really do get it”.

[annalex]

Paul spoke of fire that would destroy men's work. However, in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it is the work of the church planters/leaders that will be tested by fire, not the church planters/leaders themselves.

How do we know that? The passage speaks repeatedly of "every man", and it likens the man, not the church he plants, to a building which is then purified.

The rest of your post advances a theory that all the elect, regardless of their works in lifetime are purified solely through the merits of Christ and therefore do not need purgation. But that confuses the forgiveness of sin, already obtained by the souls in Purgatory through the grace of Christ, and participation in the suffering of Christ through our own suffering, clearly taught in Col. 1:24, which is consonant with 1 Cor 3:9-15, as already noted.

The error here is perhaps, the fundamental misunderstanding of sanctification that Luther advanced. In his view, the elect are not ever purified, but rather they remain dirty; the grace merely covers their sin. This, of course is counter to scripture, that teaches that we are to become perfect (Mt 5:48), and teaches that only the pure enter heaven (Apoc. 21:27). The same apostolic teaching is the premise of 1 Cor. 3:9-15).

That "there is not a one-to-one relationship between our confession/repentance and our forgiveness" seems to be another hypothesis that the author likes without offering any scriptural support for it.