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Childish behavior |
Posted on 07/20/2009 12:16:39 PM PDT by topcat54
Im beginning to see that prophetic speculation is taking place on the fringes of the Christian publishing industry. Of course, you will still find the occasional prophetic pot-boiler. Mark Hitchcock writes a couple of prophecy books a year. They are mostly exercises in newspaper exegesis, driven more by current events than the Bible. Consider these three, all to be published in 2009: The Late Great United States (Multnomah), 2012, the Bible, and the End of the World (Harvest House), and Cashless: Bible Prophecy, Economic Chaos, and the Future Financial Order (Harvest House). How do you go from The Late Great Planet Earth, Hal Lindseys mega-best seller from the 1970s, to the end of America? It seems to me that The Late Great Planet Earth would have included the United States. Anyone familiar with Lindseys timetable will remember that it was all to happen before 1988. Of course, these publishers are counting on people not remembering or not even knowing of past failed predictions. As P.T. Barnum is reportedly to have said (it was actually David Hannum), Theres a sucker born every minute, and these suckers make money for companies that continue to publish out-of-date prophecy books that end up being an embarrassment to the Christian faith.
The cashless society argument has been done before. Hitchcocks former co-author, Thomas Ice, wrote The Coming Cashless Society in 1996 with Timothy Demy. Where does the Bible mention a cashless society? Revelation 13:17 is used as the operating prophetic text on this issue: And [the Beast] causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. How does this translate into a cashless society? The mark is the key to the transaction. Nothing is said about what the people are using to buy or sell. It just says that they cant buy or sell without the mark, and the mark has to be 666 on the forehead and right hand, not an imbedded microchip. If its a microchip in Revelation 13, then its a microchip in Revelation 14:1.
What if the world decides to make gold the coin of the realm? Wouldnt this be a good thing? How could we oppose a world currency based on gold since its written into our constitution? No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility (Art. 1, sec. 10). Even the Bible considers gold to be a normative currency for everyone.
The meaning of Revelation 13:17 has to be found contextually. Like much of Revelation, its familiar symbols are meant to represent familiar concepts to its first readers. This is why Revelation must be read against the backdrop of the Old Testament and the contemporary historical context. As Ferrel Jenkins writes: The book of Revelation is the most thoroughly Jewish in its language and imagery of any New Testament book. This book speaks not the language of Paul, but of the Old Testament prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.[1] The beasts, both sea (Rome) and land (Israel), the mark on the hand or head (Deut. 6:8), and the number 666 should be interpreted in light of the Old Testament (1 Kings 10:14), similar to the way Sodom (Rev. 11:8), Egypt (11:8), Jezebel (2:20), Balaam (2:14), and Babylon (14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2, 10, 21) are interpreted in Revelation. By understanding the way the Old Testament uses and applies marks and the significance of 666 (spiritual adultery with the nations: 1 Kings 11), it is not that difficult to determine what John is describing in Revelation 13.
There is an article on the Always Ready Apologetics Ministry Blog (ARAMB) website with the title A One World Monetary System (July 14, 2009). The evidence that Revelation 13:17 could be in the process of being fulfilled is that Russia, China, and other nations want to switch from the Dollar to a united future world currency. This must mean that at the present, the Dollar is the united world currency; its been so since after World War II. So why wasnt the Dollar the fulfillment of Revelation 13:17? Charlie Campbell, the Director of ARAMB, doesnt offer a sound biblical argument for his claim that the Book of Revelation speaks of a time when there will be a one world monetary system in place (see Revelation 13:1618). His interpretation is based on an already adopted dispensational system. But there is no real exegesis to back it up. Campbell should take notice of his May 13, 2009 article Hermeneutics 101: Interpret Scripture with Scripture. He offers some very good advice:
A correct interpretation of the Bible will always be consistent with the rest of the Scriptures. Therefore, it is essential for us as students of the Bible to interpret a passage in light of what the rest of the Scriptures say on the topic.
Whoever carried the mark of the beast would be identified as someone who aligned himself with the beast, and whoever carried the mark of the Lamb would be identified with the blood and seal of the Lamb (Rev. 14:1). Those who identified with Rome against Jesus Christ died in the destruction of Jerusalem when Titus and his army swept in to destroy the temple and the city. These are the ones who drank of the wine of the wrath of God (14:10). Those who carried the name of Jesus Father written on their foreheads . . . follow the lamb wherever He goes (14:1, 4). The two marks identified two groups of people: one for Christ and one against Christ. As far back as Genesis, we find the division: And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heal (Gen. 3:15). Cain and Abel fit the pattern throughout biblical history that will one day culminate in the final judgment. Revelation 13:1718 is not about economics.
The control of economic transactions drives modern claims of a one-world government controlled by the antichrist during the great tribulation. This sensationalistic but popular view is outlined by Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy in their book The Coming Cashless Society:
Using every means at his disposal, including the technology of a cashless society, the Antichrist and his demands will bring the world into its greatest-ever moral and economic turmoil. Such chaos will make the stock market crash of 1929 look like a minor economic adjustment.
Revelation 13:16, 17 is the biblical point of entry for discussion of the cashless society, a one-world government, global economics, and biblical prophecy.[2]
Revelation 13:1617 says nothing about a cashless society. Having gone out on a limb with their prediction, the authors come back to biblical reality and write, The Bible does not specifically predict computers, the Internet, credit cards, or any of the other trimmings that facilitate the modern electronic banking system.[3] In fact, Revelation 13:1617 does not describe the control of financial transactions but rather access to the temple controlled by the Jewish anti-Christian religious establishment. The key to interpreting the passage is the prohibition to buy or to sell (13:17) if a worshipper does not have the mark of the beast.
Buying and selling, properly understood, are worship-related rituals (Isa. 55:12). This is established in [Revelation] 3:18 (and compare 21:6). When those who refuse the mark of the Beast are not allowed to buy and sell, it means that they are expelled from the synagogue and Temple. The merchants of the land in Revelation 18 are those who worshipped at the Temple and synagogue.[4] Babylon the Great, described as the great city (18:2, 10, 21) is Jerusalem (11:8; 16:19). Jesus foretold that this would happen: They will make you outcasts from the synagogue; but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God (John 16:2). Keep in mind that it is the beast coming up out of the land that is involved in these events. The land beast is most certainly associated with first-century Israel, especially the priests who control the temple.
Early in the churchs history the disciples went to the temple to preach the gospel (Acts 5:2021, 24, 42; 24:12). At first, they were welcomed (Acts 2:46). Peter and John frequented the temple during the hour of prayer (Acts 3:1). Jewish Christians continued to use the temple, even participating in some of its rituals (Acts 21:26). After the temple officials learned that these Jews were preaching that Jesus was the Messiahthe lamb of God who takes away the sin of the worldPaul was dragged . . . out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut (21:2630).
Jesus tells the church of Laodicea, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich. . . (Rev. 3:18). How were the people to buy gold from God? Buying gold refined by fire is symbolic and relates to spiritual worship. It is reasonable, therefore, to assume that the reference to buying and selling in Revelation 13:17 is also symbolic and related to worship.
The interpretive background for understanding Revelation 13:17 can be found in the gospels. During Jesus ministry, the temple officials were selling, and worshippers were buying, access to the temple (Matt. 21:12). Their buying and selling turned Gods house into a robbers den (21:1213), a synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). Only those Jews who aligned themselves with the priests, the sacrificial system, and the temple buildings were allowed to enter the temple for worship. If anyone approaching the temple did not have the mark of the beast, that is, if they did not align themselves with what the temple now represented apart from Christ, they could not buy or sell in order to offer the appropriate sacrifices.
To take the mark of the beast meant a person denied that Jesus was the Messiah, the true temple of God, the only sufficient sacrifice. Of course, Christian Jews avoided the mark of the beast and showed their true allegiance to Jesus, having His name and the name of his father written on their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). They did this through public professions of faith and allegiance to Jesus over against the corrupt priesthood that had chosen Caesar over Christ (John 19:15).
When commanded not to speak to any man in this name, Peter and John responded, Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking what we have seen and heard (Acts 4:1820). When the disciples heard Peter and Johns account of their encounter with the priests Annas and Caiaphas, they turned to Psalm 110 for understanding: Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples devise futile things? The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ (Acts 4:25-26). This rage only intensified as Jews made their decisions regarding Jesus more resolute.
All of these passages fit together nicely since true redemption comes from Mt. Zion where the Lamb was standing. And where is this Mount Zion?: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriad of angels (Heb. 12:22). Revelation 13 and 14 contrast two ways of salvation: access to the stone temple through the mark of the beast (Rev. 11:12) or through Jesus the true temple (John 2:1325) and the mark of the Lamb (rev. 14:1)
Endnotes:
[1] Ferrel Jenkins, The Old Testament in the Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1976), 22.
[2] Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, The Coming Cashless Society (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1996), 6970.
[3] Ice and Demy, The Coming Cashless Society, 85.
[4] James B. Jordan, A Brief Readers Guide to Revelation (Niceville, FL: Transfiguration Press, 1999), 19.
We have been over that before.
Yes we have. Somehow you don't get around to answering questions.
I'll rephrase my question: how do you square the plain meaning of Galatians 3:29, that we Christians are heirs of Abraham, with dispensationalism's rigid two peoples of God axiom?
OF COURSE Christians are joint heirs with Abraham’s seed—GOD SAYS SO. THAT SETTLES IT.
That also has NOTHING TO DO WHATSOEVER
with God’s EVERLASTING promises to Abraham’s seed.
It’s silly and UNBIBLICAL to think otherwise.
Seems exceedingly obvious to millions of us.
Please do not ping me to any more posts in this thread as I have no desire to be subjected to further insult, whether directly or by necessary implication.
Ill stick to the interpretation in the normal sense, ...
People tend to ignore the Scripture and believe what they wish to believe, adopting mantras like "normal sense" which really makes no sense when compared to the Bible.
OF COURSE Christians are joint heirs with Abrahams seedGOD SAYS SO. THAT SETTLES IT.That also has NOTHING TO DO WHATSOEVER
with Gods EVERLASTING promises to Abrahams seed.
You are stubborn, aren't you.
I can quote many, many passages, warning Israel "according to the flesh" not to count of physical descent, many, many passages clearly showing that believing Gentiles are in while unbelieving physical descendants of Abraham are cut off, that believing Gentiles are grafted in, not planted alongside, and you wouldn't see it. Dispensationalism is more important.
A memetic virus is what it is.
Abraham and his seed will be heirs of the world.
WRONG.
SCRIPTURAL TRUTH
IS MORE IMPORTANT
THAN ANYONE’S NONSENSE ASSUMPTIONS AND BIASES ABOUT IT.
NON-SEQUITUR SCRIPTURES AND SILLY PONTIFICATIONS BASED THEREON
have no influence on Dispensational Scriptures whatsoever.
GOD ALMIGHTY
is the one who said that
HIS EVERLASTING PROMISES TO ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB
ABOUT GOD ALMIGHTY’S PROMISES TO ABRAHAM RE HIS SEED WOULD BE IN FORCE AS LONG AS THERE WERE STARS etc.
NONE of the rest of Scripture trumps that one on that issue.
Mangling the whole rest of Scripture into NONSENSE REPLACEMENTARIANISM would not phase God in the least on the matter.
Nor would it fool thoughtful well read Dispensationalists either.
REQUIRE
[in terms of GOD'S EVERLASTING PROMISE remaining in effect to the children of Jacob AS LONG AS THERE ARE STARS . . .]
That ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING GOD
just dropped the ball and didn't realize He'd have to negate such EVERLASTING PROMISES because
the children of Jacob would turn out to be
horribly . . .
wellllll . . . uhhhhhhh
human . . .
Throwing all GOD'S EMPHATIC EVERLASTING PROMISES TO ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB out the window
because omniscient ALMIGHTY GOD just happened to have a bad day on every day He made such erroneous promises.
Yet y'all call me UNBIBLICAL!!!!??????????
What a sick joke!
I doubt God's laughing about it, however.
What a splendidly well done violation of the rules.
Leave the thread.
Since we are asking about Gal 3:29, let’s also consider Gal 3:28. For those who have been baptized in Christ, there is no Jew nor Greek(Gentile), ....nor is the male or female.
If one is able to discern God still has humans on Earth who are discernibly male and female, perhaps the verses are only referencing spiritual issues, but do NOT change the eschatology with different plans for Israel from the Church.
My question pertained to the Word of God, not simply the Bible.
In the Millenial Kingdom, He will write His instruction on the hearts of Israel and there will be no more need for teaching.
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; (32) not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. (33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; (34) and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: ‘Know the LORD’; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
The Church today doesn’t fit with this description.
If one asserts a New Covenant exists today for both believing Israel and Greek alike in the Church, then there is no need to teach. Since we do have need for teaching and God provides pastor-teachers as a spiritual gift, one cannot consistently take the stance we are in either the Millennial kingdom, nor that the Church has the same inheritance as Israel in that age.
There are also some well argued points regarding Israel as the wife of Christ, while the Church is the bride of Christ, but not the same person.
EXCELLENT POINT.
THANKS BIG. WELL DONE.
##########################
But don’t ya know . . . the male and female differences are only figurative.
Anything beyond the figurative meaning of
maleness
and
femaleness
is purely dispensationalist hogwash based on absolutely no tangible reality at all.
. . . though quite a number of non-dispensationalist REPLACEMENTARIAN couples on their honeymoons have been rumored to beg to differ.
This convoluted line of irrational pontification has been brought to you by your local preterist, a-mil, post-mil REPLACEMENTARIAN Rubber Bible Society.
/s
/hb [humor break]
It is sooooo wonderful to see some refreshing new
VERY BIBLICAL POINTS on these threads.
Thanks enormously.
I started the thread and you’ve permitted it to be hijacked by a name-calling whiner. I have no problem with others of differing opinions to share in the exchange, and so I do not hide behind the caucus designation. But I loathe that a certain whiner is allowed to spew pathetic, vacuous comments so freely.
It’s time for a thread designation where only substantive, thoughtful comments are allowed. Not multi-colored multi-font gibberish.
I am not presuming to tell you how to do your job, I am simply asking you to take a fresh look at the circumstances, an in particular the posting in this thread.
It is common when a group of believers spawns from another that both groups condemn each other in the harshest terms, e.g. cult, anathema, Satanic, heretic, apostate. Such condemnations often become part of official documents and are therefore subject to "open" debate on the RF.
It is also common for one group of believers to speak harshly of - or even ridicule - another group's religious authorities whether deities, leaders or doctrines. That should be expected on "open" threads, e.g. personal attacks addressed to Joseph Smith, Billy Graham, Popes or ridiculing beliefs, rites, doctrines.
And it is not uncommon (sadly) for believers to hate other believers for what they believe or how they behave.
But they must not let that hate surface on the Religion Forum. Personal attacks must not be addressed to other Freepers, personally.
Don't call each other liars, devils, monsters, etc. That is clearly trouble-making and incites flame wars.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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