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To: 1000 silverlings; Alamo-Girl; grey_whiskers; Dr. Eckleburg
nowhere is it evidenced that there was any other conduit of Grace other than faith.

Well jeepers, dear brother in Christ, of course not!!! Grace falls on the faithless as on a stone, as on totally deaf ears. There's simply no question about that.

At this point, I'm beginning to wonder how much of this "apparent dispute between us" can be attributed to a semantic problem. I.e., "both sides" — i.e., Reformed "vs." Orthodox — understand the same things, but differently. Yet it seems to me no "either/or" decision — this view is "right," thus that view is "wrong" — is required.

Case in point: You wrote

Signs and wonders are not conduits of God's grace, they testify that the HS is at work.

Thus you say signs and wonders are not "conduits," but "testimony" of the workings of the Holy Spirit. But why can't they be both? Whatever the case, the question is formed in terms of purely human categories of thought, which are finite.

And yet the Holy Spirit simply IS and, like the wind, "bloweth as it wilt." After the fact (as it were), you seem to be suggesting that the Holy Spirit acts only according to human categories: (1) either as conduit; (2) or as testimony. And you seem to suggest these are somehow mutually exclusive. Yet both are artifacts of human perception that do not constrain the divine Nature or Action of the Holy Spirit at all.

The practical problem seems to be, of what can we make "testimony" that has not been first conveyed to us in experience? [E.g., our experience tells us that "normal" shrubbery do not make divine speeches.] So unless you think the burning bush is itself divine in some way, you have to allow, it seems to me, that it can be only a "mediator" or "conduit" of a something else — which is divine. Only then do we have anything to testify about. And that, thanks to the conduit.

The other thing I notice is that your reference to "signs and wonders" seems to pertain to miraculous acts in the natural world. Yet we have to recognize that the natural world includes human beings, who, in turn have a natural social extension. This is what is meant by the saying, "man is a social animal."

Nor should we necessarily deplore the term "animal" as applying to man. "Animal" comes from the Latin word anima, which means "spirit." Thus animal means "spirit-bearing creature." The classical Greeks realized that man was even more than that, that he was also a creature with a mind. All of which the doctrine of the creation of man as imago Dei — as the image or reflection of God, that is, as divinely created to possess natural reason and free will as innate gifts of God — abundantly confirms.

But that's a long digression to get where I want to go with this. Which is: Man, being a part of created nature, and created so to have a natural social dimension — why is it that the Holy Spirit ought to be precluded from using traditions, rituals, practices, and so forth — the social expressions of natural human persons, which accordingly are part of created nature in the fullest sense — as "conduits" to human souls, while He is evidently free to use other natural objects for this purpose?

You also wrote:

Unfortunately, we know there are lying signs and wonders, and an unsaved man will never discern the difference.

Oh so very, very true, dear brother in Christ! If the "signs and wonders" are lying to us, we know from whence THAT spirit comes. But those who have refused to admit the Holy Spirit into their hearts and souls can have no warning that a Lie is being perpetrated upon them which brings eternal suffering. The godless have no protection against the great Evil, and thus are wholly defenseless against the devastation to come....

God have mercy!

331 posted on 07/17/2009 1:03:51 PM PDT by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: betty boop; 1000 silverlings; Alamo-Girl
Grace falls on the faithless as on a stone, as on totally deaf ears.

If we are speaking of God's saving grace it would be better to say God's grace does not fall on some men are not given faith in Christ and so their ears have been closed.

Men do not give themselves new ears and anyone who receives God's saving grace through faith in Christ is saved. That's the definition of "saving grace." It has saved. That man's sins have been forgiven.

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ our Lord." -- 1 Corin. 1:4-9


333 posted on 07/17/2009 1:33:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg
Actually the burning bush, the fire, was "divine in some way", and isn't a good example to use, other than maybe the fact that the fire did not consume the bush.

The angel of the Lord was in the fire and he conveyed the message to Moses of just Whom was speaking

Exodus 3:6

Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Again, if signs and wonders were conduits of saving grace, they would save, but they don't. The burning bush didn't give any saving grace to Moses, he fled from God and God was about to kill him over it.

And yet the Holy Spirit simply IS and, like the wind, "bloweth as it wilt." After the fact (as it were), you seem to be suggesting that the Holy Spirit acts only according to human categories: (1) either as conduit; (2) or as testimony. And you seem to suggest these are somehow mutually exclusive. Yet both are artifacts of human perception that do not constrain the divine Nature or Action of the Holy Spirit at all

Hmmm... I'm always pretty adamant that the HS acts only according to God's will so I have no idea why you surmised I would say that

334 posted on 07/17/2009 1:34:24 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for your outstanding essay-post and testimony, dearest sister in Christ!

But that's a long digression to get where I want to go with this. Which is: Man, being a part of created nature, and created so to have a natural social dimension — why is it that the Holy Spirit ought to be precluded from using traditions, rituals, practices, and so forth — the social expressions of natural human persons, which accordingly are part of created nature in the fullest sense — as "conduits" to human souls, while He is evidently free to use other natural objects for this purpose?

Indeed, every time I see an elegant mathematical formula revealing something about the creation, it is as if God is speaking to me as if to say "see, I made this."

And I imagine that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ standing in a grand Cathedral might also say it as if God is speaking to them saying "see, I made this."

Ditto for the Christian looking across the mountain range or the ocean or catching a glimpse of a Hubble telescope image.

337 posted on 07/17/2009 2:16:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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