Posted on 07/08/2009 3:46:23 PM PDT by NYer
I have unilaterally decided (meaning I didn't ask Matthew and there is nothing he can do to stop me) to add a new feature to the blog. The feature is "Today's Über-Catholic Open Question?" This feature may or may not be repeated. It entirely depends on you and whether your answers are interesting, funny, or foul. Don't let reason or proportion get in your way. Feel free to be more Catholic than the Pope. So, all you Über-Catholics who find fault with 87% percent of everything we write, what is your take on this question.
What is the best Über-Catholic explanation for the longevity of the antediluvian patriarchs? I am talking about all the guys from Adam to Noah who routinely lived 800-900 years talked about in that book that the Protestants are always going on about.
A) The Literal and Historical Interpretation. Yup that is how long they lived. Possible explanations:Have at it!
B) The Metaphorical Interpretation. The life spans described in the Bible are misinterpreted by modern man.
- Adam had a much better gene pool than us and so they lived longer,
- The world was different before the flood so people lived longer,
- Evolution misinterprets the fossil record (my personal favorite) and thus neanderthals are really very old patriarchs whose foreheads and facial features continued to grow during their very long life spans,
- Dannon Yogurt.
C) The Mythical Interpretation - There were no patriarchs since there was no Adam and this was all ripped off from some ancient Chinese bathroom wall and regurgitated by the Hebrews in order to keep their women folk in line or some such thing.
- Ancient people were very stupid and thus could not tell the difference between months and years (even though this would mean that some of the patriarchs were getting busy in kindergarten),
- Modern people are stupid and this obviously refers to to patriarchal dynasties,
- Some other interpretation that explains away the obvious.
D) Brand New Interpretation of Your Creation (preferably involving aliens)
Time for a mood break. If you enjoy this, please let Patrick know at the above link.
God didn’t give us the Bible so we could beat each other over the head with it.
Not every blogger is as clever as he might imagine himself to be.
Yopios anyone?
Access to food plants (not as common after the flood) genetically related to tree-of-life with similar life-extending compounds?
Presence of some symbiotic organism with life-extending function (possibly bacterial or nematode) which became extinct after the flood?
Some mutation in Noah that resulted in his offspring having shorter lives?
Some toxin or agent of decay that is now present in the environment that was much more rare in the past?
Wages of sin are death and they were simply less sinful so it took longer?
None of these possibilities are particularly unique to Catholicism. Most cultures have similar tales of long-lived ancestors. Perhaps most interesting is that nearly all of them suggest 10 generations (10 Pitris in Hindu, 10 great Babylonian kings, 10 ancestors of Odin, etc.) of extraordinary lifespans.
With the Fall, death entered the human race*. The natural lifespan was reduced from Infinity to about 900 years. Some organs we find unexplainable and do-without-able (such as the appendix) may have been Divinely switched off. (Imagine if the appendix were the organ that provided man with a regenerative capability!) I understand there's a "kill-me" gene string in each of our cells that reduces every time the cell reproduces, and when that runs out, the cells stop reproducing (as well, or at all, I don't know which). This may be another Divine switch-off resulting from the Fall.
After the flood, there was a further reduction, possibly because of the changed environment, UV or cosmic rays perhaps. By Abraham it was down to about 120 years; By Solomon, about 70. Sanitation and medicine, or their lack, have had our expectancy as low as 35, but now most people can still count on 70 or better. 100 is more and more reachable, but 120 is still newsworthy.
*I have a theory that bugs my fellow Christians, and I don't talk about it much; that is, that the way Adam and Eve were created made them different from the animals, and that only humans are truly "alive" (animals and plants being merely "animate"); therefore, when Death entered the world by Sin, that didn't mean that "animate" things had not "died" (if Adam ate a live, growing banana, it "died" of being picked, masticated, and digested). This leaves room for obvious carnivores to have been so at Creation.
/ramble :)
I vote for Dannon yogurt.
****I have a theory that bugs my fellow Christians, and I don’t talk about it much; that is, that the way Adam and Eve were created made them different from the animals, and that only humans are truly “alive” (animals and plants being merely “animate”); therefore, when Death entered the world by Sin, that didn’t mean that “animate” things had not “died” (if Adam ate a live, growing banana, it “died” of being picked, masticated, and digested). This leaves room for obvious carnivores to have been so at Creation.
/ramble :)***
Well, let’s take a look at it. Man and woman were made differently. Man and woman were given souls. Okay, that sets them apart. We believe that the soul is immortal; animals, plants and lower have no souls and therefore die completely. So far, a good lead in.
Genesis 1:
29
God also said: “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.” And so it happened.
Interesting. The initial creation had God giving the animals and birds all the green plants for food. And nothing else mentioned.
The first verse that I noticed after Genesis 1 was Genesis 9:
1
God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: “Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth.
2
Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered.
3
1 Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants.
4
2 Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.
5
For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life.
Hmm. Following Genesis here does not make it seem likely that carnivores existed at Creation; rather they were permitted to eat flesh after the Flood.
C) The Mythical Interpretation - There were no patriarchs since there was no Adam and this was all ripped off from some ancient Chinese bathroom wall and regurgitated by the Hebrews in order to keep their women folk in line or some such thing.
Obviously it didn’t work. We all know that Jewish women rule their households with an iron fist in an iron glove.
I would bet on corruption of our DNA. Absent errors in our DNA we should be capable of living forever.
Perhaps a change in the dentition, metabolism, and hunting instinct of these animals was part of the system reset brought about as a result of the Fall.
I do note one other passage between the Fall and the Flood; Abel's "acceptable sacrifice" of "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock" (Gen 4:4). The clothing of the people and their worship of God included killing, and harvesting portions of, animals. Might their new order not have included eating portions as well?
Also, Noah knew which animals and/or birds were "clean" long before Moses, and to bring seven of each rather than two. We know it was for sacrifice; was it also part of the diet?
Last (for now; I'm enjoying this and hope it continues for a while): How do you find my read on the question in the basic posting, regarding the lifespans of the patriarchs? Do you find it makes sense (which of course is not the final test of Truth)?
Food, air, water, everything was better cleaner, soil was better for growing, over time natural entropy caused a break down in the system.
Hence shorter lifespans and more disease.
Industiral revolution and scientific methods have caused some improvement, but not enough to get us back to the original model.
***I’ll have to give you grazing tigers for now :)***
I can’t find anything to gainsay it.
***Perhaps a change in the dentition, metabolism, and hunting instinct of these animals was part of the system reset brought about as a result of the Fall.***
Perhaps. The mechanism is not clear.
***I do note one other passage between the Fall and the Flood; Abel’s “acceptable sacrifice” of “fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock” (Gen 4:4). The clothing of the people and their worship of God included killing, and harvesting portions of, animals. Might their new order not have included eating portions as well?***
Might. But again, nothing definite. Nothing of record is officially changed until Genesis 9. I was unable to find that any animals were killed for clothing before this point. Do you have a verse?
***Also, Noah knew which animals and/or birds were “clean” long before Moses, and to bring seven of each rather than two. We know it was for sacrifice; was it also part of the diet?***
Again, nothing definite.
***How do you find my read on the question in the basic posting, regarding the lifespans of the patriarchs? Do you find it makes sense (which of course is not the final test of Truth)?***
It is possible, I suppose. But I can’t really speak to any of it that well. I are enguneer and I thunk literally (well at times). I like my answer several posts back that the men thought that they were putting something over on the Jewish women who have put them in their place ever since. :)
I imagine God told Adam and his family much that is not recorded, including what would be acceptable sacrifices.
I like to ponder such things and imagine what might have been, as long as it fits the Bible and not the other way 'round. We have been given a sketch without much detail.
***In Gen 3:7, realizing they were naked (oh, such giggling during Sunday School or family Bible time!) they sewed coverings out of fig leaves...this was insufficient, and in v. 21 God made “garments of skin” for them (”coats of skins”, KJV)— presumably showing what was to be done, and certainly showing the first example of innocent life being taken to cover sin.***
My translation says leather. Again, with the realm of the possible, not the definite. :)
There weren’t any Patriarchs...It’s all a metaphor...
I’m picking B but would not use the word stupid. People in Old Testament times did not have the knowledge to determine time as we understand it. So the words “..... wandered in the desert for 40 years.....” most likely meant a very, very long time. The same for determining life spans. Also, I’d throw in some of A. Better gene pool, healthier foods and less stressful lifestyles go a long way toward extending one’s lifespan.
And leather comes from...?
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