No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[Marysecretary]

No, I have the assurance in Christ.

[Marysecretary]

AMEN, Markos. You got that right.

[Marysecretary]

Ohhh, yes I have.

[papertyger]

Legalisms and they are unnecessary thats all.

???????

[papertyger]

We take the wine and bread in remembrance of Him, as He said.

What part of "do this" is unclear?

[Mr Rogers]

I have the assurance of my salvation NOW, not after the casket is closed.

You have no other "assurance" than your interpretation of Scripture.

Yet we read in Romans 8:

"15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

From the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith:

18.2 This certainty is not mere conjecture or probability based on a fallible hope. Rather it is an infallible assurance of faith based on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel, on the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit (about which promises have been made), and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption who witnesses with our spirits that we are the children of God. As the fruit of this assurance, the Spirit keeps our hearts both humble and holy.

18.3 This infallible assurance is not an essential part of faith, for a true believer may wait a long time, and struggle with many difficulties before obtaining it. Yet we may obtain it without extraordinary revelation and by the right use of ordinary means, for we are enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given to us by God. Therefore it is the duty of everyone to be as diligent as possible to make their calling and election sure, so that their hearts may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in carrying out the duties of obedience. These duties are the natural fruits of this assurance, for it is far from inclining people to loose living.

My experience follows the confession - that assurance didn't come immediately, but followed as I matured and came to know more of God & Scripture.

If you lack assurance, I suggest you carefully consider your beliefs. For in scripture, our justification is past tense. There is no basis in scripture for facing death without assurance of eternal life, unless such is your choice.

[bdeaner]

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.

Acts 9:1-5 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting..."

We know Saul was persecuting Christians. Yet Christ asks Saul, "Why are you persecuting ME." The implication is obvious: to persecute the Chruch is to persecute Christ, becuse the Church is his mystical body.

As St. Paul said:

1 Cor. 12:12-14:
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

The Church is also described as the Spouse of Christ.

Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.... For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

See also: John 3:29 & Matt. 9:15, as well as Revelations 19:7, 21:3, and 22:17.

The obvious implication here is that Christ treats the Church the way a husband treats his bride--that is, with love, nourishing her, guarding her and sacrificing for her. In addition, as Christ's bride, the Church functions as a wife should function--depending upon the protection of her spouse and begetting and nurturing the children of our Lord, His adopted sons and daughters, so that they can be brought to eternal life.

In addition, the Bible also refers to the Church as the Kingdom of God.

Matt 18: 23
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants".

Also see: Matt 22:2, 16:19.

In this analogy, God is the King. He provides the rules, defends his subjects, and provides a means for justice -- rewarding those who are just and punishing the unjust.

The Bible also refers to the Church as a Sheepfold.

Like 12:32
Fear not, little flock, for it hath pleased your Father to give you a kingdom.

Also see: Matt. 15:24 and 1 Peter 2:25:54.

Christ cares for His Church in the same way a shepherd cares for his flock -- caring for them, feeling them, leading them and watching over them.

The Scriptures also compare the Church to the Mountain of God.

Hebrews 12:22
But you are come to Mount Sion and to the city of the living God.

Also see:Matt 5:14, Gal 4.

The Church is like a mountain in that she is strong, immovable, visible, stable, and will endure for all time.

Domus Dei, or the house of God, as well as the foundation and Pillar of Truth, are other ways the Church is described in the Scriptures.

Timothy 3:15
That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

See also: 1 Peter 2:5; Eph. 2:19-20; Matt. 16:18; Gal. 6:10.

This way of understanding the Church as a house seems especially appropriate -- a homestead in which the Lord's flock is sheltered and kept. When someone leaves the "house" of the Church, they do not divine the Church, anymore than a person leaving a house divides the house. Rather, by leaving, they separate themselves from the house/Church. Anyone can leave, anyone can return, but the house always persists as a unity and does not depend on it's occupants to be as a whole. It's unity relies only on it's foundation, the Lord.

St. Paul told us, "Let us work good to all men, especially to those who are of the household of faith." Indeed, the Church-hood that unites us in Christ is a fortress like a well-built structure -- stronger and more enduring than any flesh could be.

So What?

The implications of these Biblical descriptions of the Church are clear and profound. First, they reveal how Christ saves us, yet He chooses to do so through the Church which He founded as the instrumental means of Salvation. Indeed, it was this instrumental means of Salvation, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit sent by our Lord, that the inspired books of the New Testament were delivered to the world as the good news of our salvation through Christ.

Christ certainly did not need us. He did not need a Church. He is God! And yet, nevertheless, the Scriptures reveal how our Lord chose and founded the Church for the application of his redemption and for the Glory of the Church which He likewise uses as a means to Glorify Himself.

As members of the Body of Christ, each person of the Church has their own unique purpose and role--although, like parts of any body, not equally -- which gives meaning to our lives. Each part of the Church works for the salvation of souls -- a key purpose of the Church both on earth and in heaven.

The Church is Supernatural Society, (what we term Totus Christus - the whole Christ) as it has a divine origin and continues to receive the graces of its founder (Jesus Christ, the Son of God).

The Head of the Church is Christ, and He ultimately rules the Church.

Ephesians 1:22
he hath subjected all things under his feet and hath made him head over all the church,

Christ bestows grace upon the Church both as God and Man. In His divinity He bestows grace on the Church authoritatively and instrumentally as Man (as His humanity was the instrument of His divinity).

[cva66snipe]

???????

Look some in the church I was raised in thought they were the only church going to heaven too. Their main ones to attack were the Catholics which I still don't agree with doing to any degree of condemnation. I disagree with the RC church doctorines on some things but do not see it as being the key to ones salvation or loss thereof. It's a waste of energy for both churches and changes nothing.

Be content where GOD has placed you. If it's Roman Catholic fine, Baptist fine, Church or Assembly of GOD fine. Church of Christ fine. Methodist or Luthern? etc. Some limited exceptions I question like United Church of Christ. I would question because of their deeds and their fruits. From that sect has came some real damage to us all if you follow the attacks on the church and moral attacks on this nation.

[bdeaner]

Please show me where Jesus said “ I created the Catholic Church”, he did not.

See my recent post on the Scriptural basis for the Catholic Church, as instituted by Christ as His Mystical Body for the instrumental means of salvation on earth.

[papertyger]

And you are not?

No, I constrain protestants to their own punctilious, parochial, rhetorical standards. They just don't like it because it shows how arbitrary their hermeneutics are aside from the goal of undermining Catholic doctrines.

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by grace; it is not by communion or baptism. Thus the issue of transubstantiation - while interesting - is a minor, dogmatic issue.

No, the Catholic Church teaches you WILL go to hell for not fulfilling your religious obligations. Communion is the very summit of those obligations.

[bdeaner]

So you claim that God was with his church always but yet He let them wander in the wilderness for 400 years til He summoned your Roman religion to come up with doctrine???



I said the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, not 400 years later. He gave the authority to St. Peter and His Disciples, who passed their authority along to their successors, and that unbroken succession of authority is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Sola Scriptura is a self-refuting doctrine.

[papertyger]

Are you insinuating that God has nothing to do with me?

I'm raising it as a possibility.

I know God is empowering my faith because I know how fervently I believed, yet remained enslaved to sin, as a protestant.

[Semper Mark]

“No the Catholic Church teaches that you WILL got to hell for not fulfilling your religious obligations.”

Then what good is grace?

[bdeaner]

Number VI. has been removed in later versions of this 1646 version.

Not exactly a rock solid doctrine if it keeps changing all the time.

[bronxville]

“And Calvinists are the last people who should bring up witch burnings and stealing property, after their looting of Ireland.”

In Drogheda there’s a street named Scarlett.

First, the Church of St. Mary was destroyed and later St. Peter’s Church was set afire. The defenders put up a vigorous defense but when Drogheda fell, 3500 defenders and civilians of the city had been killed.

Hence, why there’s a street in Drogheda named Scarlett.

After the slaughter of Drogheda, Cromwell gave this address:-

“This is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands in so much innocent blood.... it will tend to prevent the effusion of blood for the future, which are satisfactory grounds to such actions, which otherwise work remorse and regret.”

And that was only the beginning for the “papists whores of babylon”....

[Semper Mark]

“Sola Scriptura is a self refuting doctrine.”

Is it?

I've heard a great deal about the eating of Christ's flesh on this thread. What is Christ's flesh and how does one consume it?

[papertyger]

Dood, you’re missing the forrest for the trees! Walking and playing your six string is ritualistic behavior! Why do you think Catholics love their rosaries so much in the face of biblical injunction against “vain” repetition?

It’s not the repetition, it’s the meditation. It’s really hard to describe until you’ve felt it. It’s kind of like all of a sudden discovering you’ve been carrying around another sensory organ you never noticed before. I’m not kidding. Some of my most profound biblical discoveries have been made straight out of my memory while praying the rosary.

If the Mary thing makes you squeamish, find an ecumenical rosary page online. I’m serious. Just try it.

[bdeaner]

Then what good is grace?

Grace gives us the faith and hope in eternal life by which we are lead in the first place to participate in the sacraments which are the instrumental means of salvation Christ institutes through the Church.

[PugetSoundSoldier]

So it is your faith that leads you to believe. And your faith is stronger than mine (so you believe).

Ultimately, it is your faith that puts you as God above me, or any Protestant.

Your words have made it clear; you view Protestants as going to Hell, as unworthy of the grace of God, even unable to experience that Grace and personal relationship.

Thank you, good night. There is nothing more to discuss.

[papertyger]

For in scripture, our justification is past tense.

In scripture, you have to skip over all the places that talk about losing that salvation.