Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
I’ve never been shy about telling what tradition I am from, but it’s mocked and ridiculed by a couple posters here so why bother. If you are really interested, I’ll freepmail you.
“I spent some time last night reading about the history of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has had multiple Popes at one time, bitter fighting (with folks killed) between factions, Popes excommunicating Popes...its record as a single teaching authority is very spotty, to say the least.”
Glad to see you’re reading up on the history Mr Rogers though perhaps starting in the middle with ‘bad popes’ isn’t the way I’d go but suggest you start with the Apostolic Fathers and work your way forward.
Yes, Catholics agree there were bad popes. Historians say there were at least 8-12 out of 266 who were morally corrupt. A few of them were selected by corrupt secular governments while a few others passed it from family to family. Benedict IX 1032-1045 AD was morally corrupt. He became Pope in his late teens and early 20’s and was running around with many different women. He incited a riot in Rome because the people were fed up with him. Probably the worst pope was Alexander VI (1492-1503). He had several illegitimate children before and during his reign as pope. He was into bribery, deceit, debauchery and anything else you could imagine. Pope Innocent VII (1484-1492) and Pope Leo X (1513-1521) were from the Borgia and Medici families which were kind of like the Good Fellas of the middle ages. They were infamous in Italy. It was these three popes who contributed significantly to the unrest that led to the Reformation - which in turn (we Catholic would argue) led to secularism (the disintergration of Christendom —Christian civilization), and thus our long-overdue response to it at Vatican II, which (if you notice) rid the Papacy of a lot of its “imperial trappings” and restored it to much of what it was in the earlier centuries of the Church but Catholic Dogma was NOT nor can it be changed nor was it blurry except to those who wanted it blurred for their own personal agenda. Some of the changes are that the Pope is no longer carried around on an imperial-style litter, for example and no longer wears the three-crowned tiara, etc. He also (per the canons of Vatican II) permits the bishops to manage the internal affairs of their own dioceses. Of course, this has recently back-fired on us with the homo/pedophile scandal in the priesthood, with our critics claiming that Rome itself is to blame because of the mis-management of American bishops. So, it seems we Catholics can’t “win” with our critics, no matter what we do.
Also keep in mind that the Reformation didn’t escape many of the same kinds of corruptions that it was accusing Catholic courts of practicing. Martin Luther was disgusted with the conduct of many of fellow protestants who had authority. Church historian John Laux writes:
...in his own Wittenberg, where Protestant Princes confiscated the wealthiest bishopbrics and monasteries for their own use…while the preachers often suffered the direst want. Irreligiousness, immortality and vices of all sorts flourished...
In a 1545 letter to his wife Martin Luther writes about the Reform...
Let us get out of this Sodom. I prefer to wander about homeless and to beg my bread from door to door than to poison my poor last days by the spectacle of all these disorders. We experience it daily that the people are seven times worse today than ever before under the Papacy; they are more avaricious, more unchaste, more envious, more intemperate, more dishonest... [John Laux, CHURCH HISTORY, p.431]
The Catholic Church claims that its teaching is infallible, but it does NOT claim that its people are not indefectible. Even Jesus chose a bad disciple, Judas. We don’t say “Hey Jesus can’t be the Saviour, he had a bad disciple.” Ten of the disciples deserted him.
What is really amazing regarding the bad popes is that they stayed silent on issues of faith and morals. They could have defined all kinds of crazy doctrines in the name of their teaching authority, but they didn’t. Catholics think this is a testimony in favour of the Papacy. These bad popes did NOT define any doctrines. Catholics think this is part of God’s infallibility promise. Not only will God direct popes in their teaching, but He’ll also shut them down. Catholics believe God protected his Church during those periods when there were bad popes. We believe He meant what He said:
...you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mat 16:18)
Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).
No we aren’t. We take the wine and bread in remembrance of Him, as He said.
Thank you for your clear explanation. Hope your nose is better. I have a bit of an infection in mine this week.
Excellent. Thank you.
- or -
Jesus is talking figuratively throughout about being consumed. That we must take His teachings internal to us to change our hearts.
Or the more likely alternative:
You are constraining Christ to your punctilious, parochial, rhetorical standards.
For example, I've actually had people tell me the Bible has errors because God doesn't seem to know that bats aren't birds, as if the boundaries of modern species classification were written in stone at the foundation of the world.
The truth is God may not consider faith and works nearly as exclusive as you do. And by the way, that's the understanding of my Church.
I guess you can insist Deuteronomy 14 is bona fide error, but I don't think God will be too impressed by your reasoning...if for no other reason than I just explained it to you.
““11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.””
“It fails to address Galatians 2:14 - “I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?””
“Apart from that, I think we’ll have to respectfully disagree with the most accurate interpretation of what happened that day in Antioch.”
What is the most accurate interpretation?
“However, I cheerfully grant that Peter was an extraordinary fellow, whose role in the foundation of the church cannot be denied or minimized. But supreme over all the Apostles, and with his successors as Bishop Supreme forever? That seems quite a stretch!”
Why is that a stretch?
“Frankly, force is a much stronger word than teach, since it implies a penalty if the teaching is not followed.”
Yes, there would be a penalty.
What utter nonsense, papertyger. You act as though the Jesus of the Bible isn’t ours, just yours. That’s foolishness and not true. Jesus isn’t a Catholic.
Mocking and ridiculing a religious tradition (the Catholic Church) is an Elimcult speciality.
You would be amazed by the effect ritual has on overcoming this very problem.
And you are not?
The truth is God may not consider faith and works nearly as exclusive as you do. And by the way, that's the understanding of my Church.
And then again, He very well may. See, there is not 100% provable solution here, nor a 100% agreed-to position. Thus it is dogma. It cannot be proven conclusively.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by grace; it is not by communion or baptism. Thus the issue of transubstantiation - while interesting - is a minor, dogmatic issue.
“THE Catholic Church.
Yes, THE Catholic Church that ‘banned’ the Gospels they found unacceptable.
Where’s the Gospel of Thaddeus? Where’s the Gospel of Silas or Andronicus? Oh that’s right. The Catholic Church burned them....
THE Catholic Church that burned women as witches and stole their property.
THE Catholic Church that sold indulgences for money.
THE Catholic Church that granted absolution to murderers for political power.
THAT Catholic Church...
“Put not your faith in the Princes of men...” Jesus said that I believe. And there ain’t one single word in my Bible about a Pope.”
Okay I’ll bite. I’ve observed the Baptists try and have a conversation while calvinists just throw slime. You want a conversation, then start over, otherwise you’re just being a silly little nilly.
I do if you have a faith that can remain strong even if God is having nothing to do with you.
Would you recognize it if God were ignoring you?
No ... you haven’t.
Are you insinuating that God has nothing to do with me?
Excactly. And Calvinists are the last people who should bring up witch burnings and stealing property, after their looting of Ireland.
Does all that mean I gotta wash behind my ears before church?
Nope. I can sit in a church and my concentration is maybe 5 minutes on a good day. On a bad day the sounds there would make it unbearable. Look if I can't complete the thought process of saying The Lords Prayer at times that says there is another prevailing issue at hand I am dealing with and it's not a spiritual cause. It's the same reason I have problems reading and concentrating. But I can go take a two mile walk and say my prayers such as they are. I'll return much more recharged spiritually than I would an hour in church.
For that matter on a good day I can put on the headphones with Gospel Music and achieve the same. Ironically one of the few things I can do that come easy i playing my old six string. I learned to play on Gospel Songs. Actually it was listening to a Willie Nelson album The Troublemaker LOL. One of my top favorites of several hundred CD's.
GOD gives to each of us our callings and places to be.
“Jesus isn’t a Catholic.”
There will be no Catholics in Heaven...
or Baptists, Presbyterians, or Methodists and so on.
Only lost sinners saved by the grace of God will ever step foot inside of those pearly gates.
Human affiliations in this world will not add one iota to your standing before a Holy God. Faith in Christ alone will save you.
You have no other "assurance" than your interpretation of Scripture.
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