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No Salvation Outside the Church
Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner



Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that "extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.

Work Out Your Salvation

There are two distinct dimensions of Jesus Christ’s redemption. Objective redemption is what Jesus Christ has accomplished once for all in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension: the redemption of the whole universe. Yet the benefits of that redemption have to be applied unceasingly to Christ’s members throughout their lives. This is subjective redemption. If the benefits of Christ’s redemption are not applied to individuals, they have no share in his objective redemption. Redemption in an individual is an ongoing process. "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling; for God is at work in you" (Phil. 2:12–13).

How does Jesus Christ work out his redemption in individuals? Through his mystical body. When I was a Protestant, I (like Protestants in general) believed that the phrase "mystical body of Christ" was essentially a metaphor. For Catholics, the phrase is literal truth.

Here’s why: To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense "the divine fruits of the Redemption" (Mystici Corporis 31).

The Church: His Body

What is this mystical body? The true Church of Jesus Christ, not some invisible reality composed of true believers, as the Reformers insisted. In the first public proclamation of the gospel by Peter at Pentecost, he did not invite his listeners to simply align themselves spiritually with other true believers. He summoned them into a society, the Church, which Christ had established. Only by answering that call could they be rescued from the "crooked generation" (Acts 2:40) to which they belonged and be saved.

Paul, at the time of his conversion, had never seen Jesus. Yet recall how Jesus identified himself with his Church when he spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus: "Why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, emphasis added) and "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5). Years later, writing to Timothy, Paul ruefully admitted that he had persecuted Jesus by persecuting his Church. He expressed gratitude for Christ appointing him an apostle, "though I formerly b.asphemed and persecuted and insulted him" (1 Tim. 1:13).

The Second Vatican Council says that the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church and the mystical body of Christ "form one complex reality that comes together from a human and a divine element" (Lumen Gentium 8). The Church is "the fullness of him [Christ] who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:23). Now that Jesus has accomplished objective redemption, the "plan of mystery hidden for ages in God" is "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Eph. 3:9–10).

According to John Paul II, in order to properly understand the Church’s teaching about its role in Christ’s scheme of salvation, two truths must be held together: "the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity" and "the necessity of the Church for salvation" (Redemptoris Missio 18). John Paul taught us that the Church is "the seed, sign, and instrument" of God’s kingdom and referred several times to Vatican II’s designation of the Catholic Church as the "universal sacrament of salvation":

"The Church is the sacrament of salvation for all humankind, and her activity is not limited only to those who accept her message" (RM 20).

"Christ won the Church for himself at the price of his own blood and made the Church his co-worker in the salvation of the world. . . . He carries out his mission through her" (RM 9).

In an address to the plenary assembly of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (January 28, 2000), John Paul stated, "The Lord Jesus . . . established his Church as a saving reality: as his body, through which he himself accomplishes salvation in history." He then quoted Vatican II’s teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation.

In 2000 the CDF issued Dominus Iesus, a response to widespread attempts to dilute the Church’s teaching about our Lord and about itself. The English subtitle is itself significant: "On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." It simply means that Jesus Christ and his Church are indivisible. He is universal Savior who always works through his Church:

The only Savior . . . constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: He himself is in the Church and the Church is in him. . . . Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord (DI 18).

Indeed, Christ and the Church "constitute a single ‘whole Christ’" (DI 16). In Christ, God has made known his will that "the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity" (DI 22). The Catholic Church, therefore, "has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being" (DI 20).

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it—though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries. Recall John Paul’s words about the Church quoted above: "Her activity is not limited only to those who accept its message."

Not of this Fold

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, "I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:15–17). The word translated as "tend" (poimaine) means "to direct" or "to superintend"—in other words, "to govern." So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.

People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR



Fr. Ray Ryland, a convert and former Episcopal priest, holds a Ph.D. in theology from Marquette University and is a contributing editor to This Rock. He writes from Steubenville, Ohio, where he lives with his wife, Ruth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; church; cult; pope; salvation
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Who here are you accusing of doing that?

Where did he claim he was accusing someone, let alone someone here?

801 posted on 06/29/2009 8:38:27 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Mr Rogers
Actually, multiple people have posted alternative interpretations.

True. I'm not denying that. I'm denying any of them rises above the level of conjecture as NONE of them rely solely on scripture(the only protestant authority) for "interpretation."

802 posted on 06/29/2009 8:40:50 PM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: Petronski; Mr Rogers; PugetSoundSoldier

Petronski:

Yes, there may be some hyper enthusiasts with respect to the term alter Christus or inpersona Christi, which means nothing other that the Priest does not act on his own. As Pope Benedict states in Spirit of the Liturgy (p. 216), The Liturgical attire worn by the priest during the Holy Mass should first and foremost make clear that he does not sand there as a private person, as this or that man, but stands in place of another—Christ..What is private or individual about him should disappear and make way for Christ for as St. Paul states “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). So the Priesthood makes present, through the sacrament the priesthood of Christ, for St Paul himself described his own ministry as a priestly ministry (c.f. Romans 15:16)

Mr. Rogers: I made an earlier post [#677], which outlines the Catholic position on the Eucharist. In addition, here is a link to the Catechism that gives more detail.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/

PugetSound:

So your a former Catholic. Ok, fair enough. I think to say the Eucharist does not matter is something that no Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox Can accept. I think the differences in sacramental theology are also linked to differences in the doctrine of justification and Grace. Here again is another long post of mine, hey I am an academic by profession and like to pontificate, LOL. I think it provides a basis for why the Eucharist as a Sacrament is something that can’t be taken lightly.

Catholic Doctrine, all of it, connects the Doctrine of Incarnation with the Doctrine of the Cross. This would include ecclesiology, doctrine of justification, and Sacramental theology. Sacraments are tied to both Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery (Passion, Death, Resurrection, etc). Again, Pope Benedict’s great quote from his book Jesus of Nazareth where the Pope links Incarnation and Cross Together will suffice here once again:

• Pope Benedict in Jesus of Nazareth (p. 269) states “ In this Chapter the theology of Incarnation and the Theology of the Cross come together; the two cannot be separated. There are thus no grounds for setting up and opposition between Easter theology of the Synoptics and St. Paul, on one hand, and St. John’s supposedly purely incarnational theology, on the other. For the goal of the Word’s becoming-flesh spoken of by the prologue is precisely the offering of his body on the Cross, which the sacrament makes accessible to us”

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 460) we see salvation linked to “participation of the Divine Nature” or what the Eastern Tradition refers to as “Theosis”, which is a beautiful Doctrine that states that Human beings can have communion with God, and thus become like God to such a degree that humans can “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). We become united with God by his Grace, through his son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The process of “Theosis” starts at Baptism where the CCC states the Baptized person has become a New Creature, (see CCC para. 1265)

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1

So the Catholic Church sees that through the Incarnation and Cross/Resurrection/Ascension, God has given us access to his Mercy and Love and by his Grace, which God gives us through the Sacraments, the inner person becomes renewed and transformed by Grace and through that Grace we become United to God and thus like God by Grace which of course God is by nature. In other words, Christ trough his Grace allows us to “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). So through the incarnation of Christ, God is now really accessible to us and wants us to be in “communion with him”.

So in Catholic Doctrine, as in Protestant Doctrine, it is Grace that saves. Grace, in Catholic Doctrine, is defined as “The free and undeserved gift of God that he gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children. As Sanctifying Grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, and to act by his love. As Actual Grace, God gives us the help to conform our lives to his will. Sacramental Grace is a gift of the Holy Spirit to help us live out our Christian vocation [See CCC 1996 and 2000].

Looking at the Catholic Definition above, I think there is a difference in how Grace is understood in Catholic doctrine, versus Protestant Doctrine(s), and what it does to the person, In Catholic Doctrine, Grace is transformative, rather than a purely external covering [Calvinist and Lutheran position] and thus we have communion with God. In other words, if salvation is union with God, how is it that God is still external to me if the forensic declaration of Calvin and Luther is correct. I think the differences in understanding human anthropology and how in Catholic doctrine, original sin distorted our image that God created us, but did not destroy it, and thus Grace restores us fully back into the image of God (c.f. Genesis 1:27) and as the Book of Wisdom records [yes, I know it is not in the your OT], we read “For God created man for incorruption and made him in the image of his own eternity but through the devil’s envy death entered the world” (Wisdom 2: 23-24) [on another doctrinal point, this passage is the first to link the serpent in Genesis as being the Satan].

So Grace then transforms us back into the image that God intended for us before the fall. Sacraments, which are the normative means through which God gives us grace are defined as “An efficacious sign of Grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit.” The Sacraments, which include Baptism and Eucharist, then are the means through which God gives us Grace, which saves us and transforms and gives us communion with the Holy Trinity. So, the Eucharist then does save us in the sense that it does give us Grace and sustains us through this life. Grace then sanctifies us by healing our human nature, wounded by sin [note not destroyed] and giving us a share in the divine life of the Holy Trinity. Thus, Grace transforms us and makes us Holy, which I alluded to earlier is what the Greek/Eastern tradition refers to as Theosis.

St. Paul in Ephesians speaks of the concept of “Theosis” where he states “who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, ‘to be holy and without blemish before him’” (c.f. Eph: 1:3-5). He writes “and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the Fullness of God” (c.f. Eph 3:19), and coming to “mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ” (c.f. Eph 4:13).

St. Paul in Chapter 6 of Romans takes up this theme here as well. In verses 1 to 4, he mentions Baptism then he states “For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection” (c.f. Rom 6:5). Later St. Paul writes about being “conformed to the image of his Son” (c.f. Rom 8:29), which Catholics and Orthodox believe happens at Baptism (going back to Romans 6) and restores what was loss before the fall when Man and Woman was created in the Image of God (c.f. Gen 1:26-27; Wisdom 2:23-24).

So Catholic Theology, and The Eastern Orthodox Theology, does not see us being saved by God covering us with Grace, while still seeing us as filthy and Depraved (One of Calvin’s 5 Points of TULIP). While we distorted our Image (Divine Image, as we were originally created in God’s Image) as a result of Adam and Eve’s Sin (Original Sin, i.e., The Fall), through Christ, God is going to not only restore our True Image, but through his Grace, bring us into communion with the Holy Trinity, which is Love itself, and thus partake in the Divine Nature.

St Paul further writes “that you should put away the old self of your former way of life, corrupted through deceitful desires, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth” (c.f. Eph 4:22-23). St Paul writes “to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God…Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect” (c.f. Rom 12-1-2). St Paul speaks of May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy an may you entirely, spirit, soul and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 1 Thes. 5:23) and why we are called which was “for obtaining the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 2 Thes 2:14).

In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul also talks about glory with respect to man as he writes “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him (c.f. Rom 8:16-17). St. John states whoever remains in God’s Love remains in God and God in Him. In this love brought to perfection among us we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world” (c.f. 1 John 4:16-17).

Finally, two other verses indicate “partaking of the Divine nature/Theosis” are 1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” and St. Paul’s letter to the Philippians where he states: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.” (c.f. Phil 3:21).

Anyway, hope this helps and pax et bonum


803 posted on 06/29/2009 8:40:59 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: papertyger

Yes, I do. When I asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my life, He did and I was baptized by the Holy Spirit, my guide and comforter and teacher. I confess my sins to my Father in Heaven through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don’t have to go through a Priest or through Jesus’ mother to get them answered. I’m sorry that wasn’t your experience. My worry regarding Catholics is that they may expect to already be saved because they were baptized as infants, take the Eucharist faithfully, etc., etc. That’s not what does it. Why, most don’t even realize whether or not they ARE saved until they die. How sad is that? I have the assurance of my salvation NOW, not after the casket is closed.


804 posted on 06/29/2009 8:41:31 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: wmfights

It’s so hard to get that through some of these good folks herein.


805 posted on 06/29/2009 8:42:19 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Petronski
THE Catholic Church.

Yes, THE Catholic Church that 'banned' the Gospels they found unacceptable.

Where's the Gospel of Thaddeus? Where's the Gospel of Silas or Andronicus? Oh that's right. The Catholic Church burned them....

THE Catholic Church that burned women as witches and stole their property.

THE Catholic Church that sold indulgences for money.

THE Catholic Church that granted absolution to murderers for political power.

THAT Catholic Church...

"Put not your faith in the Princes of men..." Jesus said that I believe. And there ain't one single word in my Bible about a Pope.

L

806 posted on 06/29/2009 8:46:47 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: cva66snipe
Why did Christ say in Matthew 23 and to whom did He say it too and why?

Matthew 23 is not at issue here. Pointing to genuinely ambiguous sentences does nothing to cloud clear statements.

807 posted on 06/29/2009 8:48:20 PM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: CTrent1564

Hi CTrent,

I was raised a Catholic, but never took first Communion or Confirmation. I chose to be a Free Methodist. My wife is a former Catholic, however.

And I agree that both Catholic and Protestant doctrine calls for salvation by Grace. It is not by works, though works are an outward sign of our salvation and faith. We are not saved by baptism, or communion, or anything we can do other than profess our faith earnestly and honestly and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

One thing that I think you are a bit off in regards to is the “covering” of the Grace of God. It permeates us as it does Catholics; it is not just an external thing! In fact, it is very common saying that Jesus lives inside us, that we ask Him into our hearts. We are permeated with the Grace and love of Jesus.

Given that, the rest of what you write applies to Catholics and Protestants combined; I believe our differences are dogmatic, not doctrinal. And that’s as someone raised in both faiths, who lives with someone raised in both faiths (yes, we had a mixed marriage).

The reasons that Protestants are often dismissed by Catholics are over dogma - positions that are intrinsic to their particular denomination, and not foundational to salvation.

As I posted earlier in this thread, the Nicene Creed applies to all Protestants, with the understanding that the catholic church means the universal - not Roman/Eastern/Greek “Catholic” churches - and that apostolic means the teachings of the Apostles not the apostolic succession of the papacy.


808 posted on 06/29/2009 8:56:05 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier
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To: papertyger

Oh but it is the issue. Legalisms and they are unnecessary thats all. Look I have no real beef with the RCC. You may not believe me but I have also stood for it and the Late Pope when some posters attacked both saying they were going to hell. It’s not in this forum though for anyone going looking. I’ll send you way to see the threads. You’ll likely remember the persons being here at one time.


809 posted on 06/29/2009 8:58:18 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgement? Which one say ye?)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

Amen. No person or Church is infallible. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.


810 posted on 06/29/2009 8:59:26 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Lurker
And there ain't one single word in my Bible about a Pope.

Not that you know.

811 posted on 06/29/2009 8:59:49 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

PugetSoundSoldier:

Thanks for the post, I am glad to see you accept the Creeds of the Church, which is something that we all share in common. Thus, you being a confessional protestant at least gives us a common sharing of Tradition, that some of the later Protestants have thrown away, i.e. the 20th century pentecostal, mega Church, prosperity, health and welfare movements in Protestantism.

Of course, I understand the phrase “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” a little diffeently, LOL.

Regards


812 posted on 06/29/2009 9:00:52 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: CTrent1564
Protestants have thrown away, i.e. the 20th century pentecostal, mega Church, prosperity, health and welfare movements in Protestantism.

Note that most mainstream and evangelical Protestants also discount most of those, especially the more extreme pentecostal, and the prosperity movements, and mega-churches that are simply "cults of personality" (not all of them are).

Of course, I understand the phrase “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic” a little diffeently, LOL.

Kind of like you say tomato, I say blueberry...:)

813 posted on 06/29/2009 9:03:59 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier
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To: driftdiver

Unfortunately they’re usually wrong answers. sigh.


814 posted on 06/29/2009 9:03:59 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: driftdiver

AMEN. He does that every time with me as well. Now I know why.


815 posted on 06/29/2009 9:05:28 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary

You take his lie about me and pile on.

I realize I must be fair game since I’m Catholic, but that’s low even to you.


816 posted on 06/29/2009 9:05:49 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Marysecretary

Your anti-Catholic potshots are flying now.


817 posted on 06/29/2009 9:07:56 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: driftdiver; Marysecretary; Petronski
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a forum of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

818 posted on 06/29/2009 9:08:25 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: wmfights

Some will never be reached but lurkers may see the truth in what we say. Let’s pray so anyway.


819 posted on 06/29/2009 9:09:41 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

That’s right. I believe baptism is needed AFTER we receive Christ but it doesn’t save us.


820 posted on 06/29/2009 9:11:19 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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