Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
***That must be why he made it a requirement for Elders and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
Hey now, you can’t rely on the Bible to make your point! There’s a catechism to consider! ;)***
Funny. I’ve been posting Scripture that the Reformed are pointedly ignoring. Where are the Bible Believers (tm)? Could it be that they are Scripturally unsound?
Which scriptures are those? I don’t recall seeing them.
drifdiver:
I don’t think my post is confusing. I clearly stated that the theology of the Eucharist expressed by the Church Fathers and the Councils of the CHurch is the same theology of the Eucharist held by both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church.
Now, one thing that bothers me, and this is personal thing with me, is that whenever one of these threads gets going, it is pretty obvious 1) What the Catholic Church believes, as its Doctrines are well published and 2) Given Catholics on this forum or very orthdodox, you know what each of us believes.
On the other hand, the Protestants on this forum all go after Catholics with a vengeance, not saying you all are necessarily doing that, and yet none of you all ever state what Protestant Traditon you belong to as I think if you all were to do that, we would see that your theological differences are many, yet the one thing that unites you all on this forum is your crticism of Catholic Doctrine.
“Where are the Bible Believers (tm)? Could it be that they are Scripturally unsound?”
I’m a Bible believer and I’m right here.
What does that have to do with being or not being scripturally sound or unsound? Perhaps they are spending time with family?
What scripture have you posted that nobody responded to? Do you feel ignored?
Which was prefaced by the phrase "Verily, verily?"
Do not presume to teach that which you obviously do not understand.
PugetSoundSoldier:
Technically, we are saved by God’s Grace, through Faith in God. However, how is Faith defined is what differentiates Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox Theology, from the “Various” theologies of the Protestant confessions.
Faith in Catholic Doctrine is defined as both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God ,who invites is response, and freely assents the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments and live by right conduct that fullfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of Faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment.
“On the other hand, the Protestants on this forum all go after Catholics with a vengeance”
It is a two way street and traffic has been heavy both ways.
“and yet none of you all ever state what Protestant Traditon you belong to as I think if you all were to do that, we would see that your theological differences are many, yet the one thing that unites you all on this forum is your crticism of Catholic Doctrine.”
I go to a Baptist Church but consider myself a plain ole Christian. Our theological differences are no greater than that of catholics. I’ve met good devout catholics and those not so devout. I’ve met catholics that went to mass on Saturday night so they could go out get drunk and go home with someone.
What bugs me and possibly many others is when Catholics lay the claim that they are the only way to salvation or that their priests are equal to Christ. Some catholics agree to disagree when challenged and others throw insults.
Answering every discussion with “thats your individual interpretation” is a cop out and convinces nobody. But I say go for it. I hope there are lurkers searching for an answer and I pray that answer will be one where they can pray directly to God. Where they don’t have to pay for forgiveness and where good deeds are something they do because they are saved and not to be saved. I pray they realize that acceptance and love is out there looking for them in the name of Jesus.
Once a person has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior they have immediately been Baptized by Christ in His Blood {not the same as church Baptism but rather the one that purifies and saves us} and indeed have taken of His body and blood. If you eat bread or drink wine you will again be hungry or thirsty. But the bread and wine Christ speaks of are not of this world they are spiritual bread and wine. Many could not understand that concept then. They were looking for material and physical manifestations instead.
I saw some interesting scripture while looking up something else. The church leaders in Christ time on earth had created a very legalistic church. They placed conditions on their conditions and burdens man could not carry on the people.
Matt ch12 3But Jesus said to them, “Haven’t you ever read in the Scriptures what King David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He went into the house of God, and they ate the special bread reserved for the priests alone. That was breaking the law, too. 5And haven’t you ever read in the law of Moses that the priests on duty in the Temple may work on the Sabbath? 6I tell you, there is one here who is even greater than the Temple! 7But you would not have condemned those who aren’t guilty if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to be merciful; I don’t want your sacrifices.’£ 8For I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath.”
Christ addressed legalisms in the church quite a lot. The requirements kept becoming more and more rigid so much so many had lost hope. Yet Christ made it so simple for us. The Laws of Moses was the result of a stubborn peoples disobedience who in their ignorance made their own lives and many generations to follow very difficult. They wanted heavy burdens and rituals & they got them. Up till that time GOD did not ask much of man. When man rebelled much was asked.
Christ concentrated not on ritual or creating more thereof but what was in the persons heart and His main point was faith and love which conquers all things.
See Jesus’ explanation to Nicodemus when Nicodemus says he doesn’t understand.
You will see that being “born again” is a metaphor for a rebirth spiritually, not physically.
straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it...
“straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it... “
ahh but its a simple path, straight through Jesus
Do you think that confers on you an authority to contradict Christ's clear pronouncements?
It’s OK. I’ve been told that I have no salvation outside the Catholic Church, or that if I am saved then I am a Catholic. And that I have fallen and/or need to be pruned.
I’ve defined what I am (a Free Methodist). I have only argued from the Scripture (specifically using the USCCB - the Catholic NAB online), and using the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Which Protestant tradition do you feel is not Scriptural? What claims do we make that deny Catholics can be saved and welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven?
I’m DENYING the bread and wine...
You can't have it both ways. Scripture give you absolutely no authority to contradict through "interpretation" a direct command of Jesus Christ.
You ARE denying the body and blood of Christ when you deny the bread and wine.
I think that fully fits what Protestants believe, too. Faith is what God gives us and what we place in Him; it can be expressed by actions, but it is not an action and not dependent upon specific actions.
Hey, you can argue with the Words of Christ in John 3:5.
In your dogma, yes. But then, is one saved only by communion? If yes, then you must fight for your dogma. If no - it is by faith - then communion becomes somewhat less important, doesn't it?
Do you think a worthless, powerless, doctrine of man that I subscribed to for more than twenty years will do you any better?
Vapid warnings designed to do nothing but comfort the one warning are the pettiest of jokes to someone who was blind and now can see.
Then I guess your "knowing" they don't deny the body and blood is just as empty.
Really, some people would be much better debaters if they weren't so knee-jerk vindictive.
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