Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Your mouth must be getting sore with all those feet in it...
Paul was pretty cynical about marriage at all. That is likely where his own thoughts on marriage came in. Why he was who knows. Maybe it was because he may have caught flack by the Jewish leaders for also being a Roman through his fathers bloodline and sought early in his life to please the Pharisees. Paul was human and subject to his own feelings as were the others.
Paul was content being single but that was Paul. Peter was married that was OK for Peter. But it was GOD who said it was not good for man to be alone was it not? He saw this and created woman for man to fill that need? Before telling me about reproduction and be fruitful and multiply this was established before the fall of man ever happened. It was the creation.
Calvin believed God has both evil and good in Him and called it sovereign,thus protecting the devil as a created evil by God.
“The fact youre using an (improper) analogy proves you are inferring by definition!”
What superior fears his subordinate? I never did...although I wasn’t known for fearing my bosses, either.
That may be an inference, but an inference drawn from vast experience, backed by many other people’s experience, is probably valid.
But since I’m wrong, I’m sure you won’t mind explaining WHY Peter was afraid of those sent by James.
“... WHOLE lot of really un-christian like behavior committed by the Catholic church throughout history”
It’s always interesting how Catholic-bashers like to trot out the Inquisition and the Crusades as to how bad the Catholic Church has been. Please at least be honest about it and take a look at what happened during the Reformation. Catholics were burned at the stake just for being Catholic. Wonder why France is so secular now? Most of the Catholics were killed. Entire monasteries and convents were wiped out. And the Crusades were in response to Muslim invasions.
Sorry YOU can’t see it. Your bad.
Yes, if they repent and turn away from their sin.
Mr. Rogers:
Thanks for the response, I agree that the commentaries that I have read [Catholic] mention the spirits in prison are related to the angels back in Genesis 4:6. I think your Protestant commentaries agree with my Catholic on that point.
However, I think I also noted that what this passage does suggest that Christ after the resurrection or during the time between Crucifixion and resurrection [I don’t think the text is clear on that point], Christ went and preached to the sprits in prison and thus at some point, there was a state that was not Heaven or Hell. Does that place still exist?
The next passage in 1 Peter 4: 6 speaks of preaching the Gospel to the dead. While some scholars say this is related to 1 Peter 3:19, the majority of Catholic Scholarship sees this relating to Christians who had died since hearing the preaching of the Gospel from the Apostles.
One reason given as to why ST. Peter wrote this particular text is that there was an expectation among the Apostles, which did not turn out to be true, that Christ second coming would occur during the lifetime of the Apostles, thus the need to address the issue of death for Christians as pagans were thought to have said, you all embrace Christ and yet, you still fill the sting of death.
Anyway, thanks for the response
Yeah, sure...
God is the only one who CAN make it work. Without HIM, the change isn’t real.
How are you going to solve your differences?
IMO, this is when you start another church of your own.
Nice try but no cigar...
You guys just don't get it...Maybe it's beyond your reach...
I can go to a Pentecostal church and be among my brethren...
I can go to a Baptist church and be among my brethren...
I can go to an Anglican church and likely have some brethren there...
I can go to an Episcopalian church and be among some brethern...
I can go to a Grace Bible church and be among my brethern...
I could even go to a Catholic church and possibly bump into a brother or two there...
We don't have to agree on everything...And obviously we are not all correct on every little thing...But one thing we have no disagreement over is what we are counting on to get us to Heaven...We KNOW what we must do to get saved...
Unlike you scholars, we are mostly bible students...I may change my views on a particular verse...God may reveal something to me that He hasn't as of yet...There are plenty of things God hasn't revealed to me, or anyone for that matter...
***So St. Paul goes against not only God, but medical science. What a bad man. I guess that the Church was entirely wrong about him and we need to trash all of his writings and expunge him from all Christianity. I suppose that he is in hell right now for not only disobeying God, but the AMA as well.
Paul was pretty cynical about marriage at all. That is likely where his own thoughts on marriage came in. Why he was who knows.***
Who knows indeed; yet we have Paul telling us that for certain people (himself and as many as would bear it), celibacy was a preferred state.
***Peter was married that was OK for Peter.***
We have no details of Peter’s marriage, only the fact that he had a mother in law. Perhaps that is what drove him from Jerusalem to Rome. :)
***But it was GOD who said it was not good for man to be alone was it not? He saw this and created woman for man to fill that need? Before telling me about reproduction and be fruitful and multiply this was established before the fall of man ever happened. It was the creation.***
And if all of us were that way, the human race would be dead. Paul was pretty clear that it is only certain people that should be celibate. As in the Church today.
Is man God? Can created man exercising his “free will” know what is the highest good in the mind of God without God's revelation? If it takes God's revelation then it is not “free will” since something outside of man has influenced him whether it be genetics, socialization, education, experience, opportunities, physical, mental and emotional handicaps, prejudices or whatever. Because of these stimuli, humans are “free agents” in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. They are moral agents answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices based on the light they have.
“Free will” is an abstraction, defined as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers. Augustine argued against Pelagius that original sin robbed mankind of “free will” in this sense. He stated man has no natural ability to discern or choose God's way because we have no natural inclination Godward; man's heart is in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free man from that slavery. Rom. 6:16-23, only the “freed” will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. (John 8:34-36, Gal. 5:1, 13)
MarkBsnr:
Speaking of heretical doctrines similar to what you mentioned. There was a thread “God Needed an Image” posted on 7/2. In post #6 I asked if it was an open thread as reading it, it was obviously “modalism”, which I charitably pointed out to the nice folks over there in post #11 and 13.
It is amazing what happens when individuals who claim the Bible as their authority, apart from the Church, which canonized the Scriptures and protected and translated it down through the centuries. The consequences of the Reformation are directly related to relativism and I will make up for myself what I believe is true apart from a continuity of Tradition. Marxism is philosophically similar as it wants nothing to do with History, rather, it wants to make History in the future and create it in and fashion it according to its own marxist doctrine since history is opressive as it represents, well you know, a dogmatic claim that there is Truth, objective right and wrong, etc, etc,
And in my case I’m a husband, step father, and even been a foster parent for a while. No kids from my own blood but no regrets for not having my own. I have the grandkids to keep me busy LOL.. A hard one too for some to accept. But I believe this too. If GOD wanted direct desendents from me some barriers would have been lowered and it would have happened. On the other hand he knew my future too. I had plenty of kids to help raise in years to come.
By the end of the 2nd century, the canon was largely established by common practice.
” Provisional Canon of New Testament (end of 2nd century). - By the last quarter of the 2nd century the conception of a Christian Bible in two parts, Old Testament and New Testament, may be said to be definitely established. Already at the beginning of this period Melito had drawn up a list of the twenty-two Books of the Old Covenant, i.e. of the documents to which the Old Covenant made its appeal. It was a very short step to the compiling of a similar list for the New Covenant, which by another very short step becomes the New Testament, by the side of the Old Testament. It is therefore not surprising, though a piece of great good fortune, that there should be still extant a list of the New Testament books that may be roughly dated from the end of the century. This list published by Muratori in 1740, and called after him “ the Muratorian Fragment on the Canon,” is commonly believed to be of Roman origin and to be a translation from the Greek, though there are a few dissentients on both heads. The list recognized four Gospels, Acts, thirteen epistles of Paul, two epistles of John, Jude, Apocalypse of John and (as the text stands) of Peter; there is no mention of Hebrews or (apparently) of 3 John or Epistles of Peter, where it is possible - we cannot say more - that the silence as to t Peter is accidental; the Shepherd of Hermas on account of its date is admitted to private, but not public, reading; various writings associated with Marcion, Valentinus, Basilides and Montanus are condemned.
There are many interesting points about this list, which still shows considerable freshness of judgment. (i.) There are traces of earlier discussions about the Gospels, both in disparagement of the Synoptics as compared with St John, and in criticism of the latter as differing from the former. (ii.) There is a healthy tendency to lay stress on the historical value of narratives which proceed from eye-witnesses. (iii.) An over-ruling and uniting influence is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. (iv.) The writer is concerned to point out that letters addressed to a single church and even to an individual may yet have a wider use for the Church as a whole. (v.) The sense is not yet lost that the appeal of the Old Testament is as coming from men of prophetic gifts, and that of the New Testament as coming from apostles. (vi.) It is in accordance with this that a time limit is placed upon the books included in the New Testament. (vii.) Christians are to be on their guard against writings put forth in the interest of heretical sects.
When the data of Fragm. Murat. are compared with those supplied by the writers of the last quarter of the 2nd and first of the 3rd centuries (Tatian, Theoph. Ant., Iren., Clem. Alex., Tert., Hippol.), it is seen that there is a fixed nucleus of writings that is acknowledged, with one exception, over all parts of the Christian world...
In the fixing of the Canon, as in the fixing of doctrine, the decisive influence proceeded from the bishops and the theologians of the period 325-450. But behind these was the practice of the greater churches; and behind that again was not only the lead of a few distinguished individuals, but the instinctive judgment of the main body of the faithful. It was really this instinct that told in the end more than any process of quasi-scientific criticism. And it was well that it should be so, because the methods of criticism are apt to be, and certainly would have been when the Canon was formed, both faulty and inadequate, whereas instinct brings into play the religious sense as a whole; with spirit speaking to spirit rests the last word. Even this is not infallible; and it cannot be claimed that the Canon of the Christian Sacred Books is infallible. But experience has shown that the mistakes, so far as there have been mistakes, are unimportant; and in practice even these are rectified by the natural gravitation of the mind of man to that which it finds most nourishing and most elevating. “
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Bible#.28c.29_Controversy
The bishops in the Catholic church ratified what the churches had already recognized - and it wasn’t done formally until 1546.
“Where in scripture does a single apostle endorse the contrary view?”
Try Acts 21 - they free the Gentiles, but left the Jews in chains...
God revealed the devil to you,Bd-denying free will means that God created devil's decisions according to you
Free will is an abstraction, defined as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers. Augustine argued against Pelagius that original sin robbed mankind of free will in this sense. He stated man has no natural ability to discern or choose God's way because we have no natural inclination Godward; man's heart is in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free man from that slavery
Why do you guys twist Augustine without reading his retractions?
From Blessed Augustine... Because that discussion was undertaken for the sake of those who deny that the origin of evil is derived from the free choice of the will, and contend that Godif He be soas the Creator of all natures, is worthy of blame; desiring in that manner, according to the error of their impiety (for they are Manicheans), to introduce a certain immutable nature of evil co-eternal with God. Augustine-Chapter 27. Reference to the Retractations.
“IMO, this is when you start another church of your own.”
IMO, this is where we talk and mutually seek the truth - or we just don’t worry much about it, since neither of us needs for either Peter or Paul to be perfect in teaching or example.
Protestants agree that ALL have sinned, and ALL fall short of the glory of God. And like Peter, we tell folks to look to scripture to find doctrinal answers - not men.
Money doesn't get annulments. Money pays for the investigation. Do you object to that?
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