5 Myths Concerning the Rapture: A Critique of Premillenial Dispensationalism

Skadi Forum ^ | 11/3/08 | Carl E. Olson

[bdeaner]

Well, it IS heaven, after all. ;)

[RobRoy]

>>I choose Uncle Mortimer’s Sausage Train.<<

I hear the food is good and the pork is kosher. :)

[RobRoy]

>>our spirits live on for eternity either in heaven or hell...<<

But the bible is very clear. You either have eternal life or you don’t. If one does not have eternal life, one dies and is eternally dead.

Like some of my lawn last summer, they aint never comin’ back to life. They’re dead, Jim. Spiritually dead.

At least, that is what every bible I have ever read says.

[RobRoy]

>.I have heard that being eternally separated from God is spiritual death...
even if our bodies die..

So, the spirit, according to what you said above, is dead, and the body, according to what you said, is dead. So what is alive, exactly?

[RobRoy]

>>I don’t think the idea of the rapture has been around that long...<<

It depends on who you talk to and what that person means by “rapture”. The word itself may be new, but the concept is quite literally as old as the Bible, depending on what the person using the word actually means.

It is not uncommon for threads on the subject to get bogged down by nuances in the definition of the word “rapture” rather than what it is talking about.

If I start calling it the “great taking away at around the time of the return of Christ”, then people start asking what I mean by that. I can then quote various scriptures in an attempt to prove my position. But when I call it the “rapture” people say, “I don’t see that word in the bible”. And everyone starts arguing about a word.

My response to that is pffffth.

[FourtySeven]

In the meantime, you can use an online version of the Catechism found here: CCC.

Don't worry, it's the same one as found at the Vatican website. In fact, the Vatican website's Catechism is just a copy of this one, without the handy search feature this one offers.

As far as the Church's position on Eschatological beliefs, I believe the Church allows for any Eschatological belief other than the popularized "Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial" (or Post-Millennial although I don't know how that could fit with a Pre-Tribulation viewpoint) belief espoused by LeHaye and others (i.e., the topic of this thread, i.e., the "Rapture"). That is, one is free to believe we are past the Millennium, but not that the Church will be "raptured" before the Tribulation. (Again, I don't know how that would work anyway) IOW, this is why the Church hasn't come out and said which Eschatological belief is "correct".

To your knowledge, am I correct on that bdeaner?

[FourtySeven]

Yes, latest articles...IN ALL FORUMS, including the Religion Forum. ;)

Yes, this is a common complaint among some here on FR. This occurs because after the last upgrade to the Forum software, there is no way to keep one's focus on only one Forum. So, when one logs off (closes the browser), if one wishes to only see News/Activism posts, then one must choose "News/Activism" each time one logs back on to FR (opens the browser again).

If one doesn't choose "News/Activism" when one logs back on, then FR will display All Articles (or "Everything") from every forum (News/Activism, Religion, General/Chat, etc) until one does choose a particular forum. There is no way to set viewing of one particular forum only in one's personal preferences at this time.

[FourtySeven]

An absolutely superb post!

Good to see you again!

[woollyone]

Myth #6...
The catholic church is the final authority on all matters biblical

[Constitutions Grandchild]

Thank you. I've saved the site and looked up the return of Christ. It is as I was taught and always believed. I've been having guilt trips for nothing — thinking I had it wrong. My E&R catechists taught me well. Our litany was identical to that of the RCC (except for devotions to Mary). Since my conversion, I have learned to love and devote much of my prayer time to the Mother of God through thanksgiving for her “yes” to God and extraordinary admiration for her courage and heroic response to pain and heartache. The Chaplet of Divine Mercy ranks as my most prayed and the Chaplet to St. Michael is one of the most beautiful prayers for the graces to which we aspire. I never start the day without it.

[bdeaner]

To your knowledge, am I correct on that bdeaner?

For the most part, yes, the Catholic Church rejects premillenialism as un-Biblical. The current version of premillenialism, such as in the Left Behind series, is a very new eschatological doctrine, actually rooted in Irish, anti-Catholic propaganda from the 1800's, and the Church rejects it as outside the Tradition.

Generally, the Church espouses what would be called amillenialism -- but there are a wide variety of these, so there is not one single, eschatological view accepted by the Church at this time.

[bdeaner]

Myth #6...
The catholic church is the final authority on all matters biblical

The Catholic Church's authority is not a myth, unless you consider the Bible to be a myth too. See Matthew 18:15-19, for example. Christ tells his disciples that an offending Brother does not hear the church, he will be treated as an outsider who is lost. And at that point, gives authority to His Apostles (and by implication their successors) by saying, "Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound also in heavenl and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matt. 18:18).

It's clear in this passage from Matthew that the Church must have been a visible, tangible entity established in a hierarchical fashion. Otherwise, how would anyone have known to whom the wrongdoer should be referred? If the Protestant definition of "church" were correct, then the wrongdoer would have to "hear" each and every believer who existed, hoping that there would be unanimity among them regarding the issue at hand. The inherent absurdity of this scenario is readily apparent. The only way we can make sense of Our Lord's statement here is to acknowledge that there was a definite organization, with positions of authority readily identifiable, to which an appeal could be made and from which a decisive judgment could be had.

God bless.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**...actually rooted in Irish, anti-Catholic propaganda from the 1800’s,***

Would that be Maggie McDonald’s visions? I read that their pastor later led them into Catholicism.

I also heard, many years ago, on a late night SW radio program, an anti-rapture, anti- Catholic “identity preacher” claiming that the rapture was originated by reformation era Catholics to deflect the belief that the pope was the anti-christ.

I take all of this with a BIG dose of salts! It’s interesting what you will find on late night SW radio.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

The spirit it self lives on forever, but, to be separated from God eternally ( concerning spiritual things ) is dead... and to be with God in Heaven is eternal life..

[RobRoy]

“The spirit it self lives on forever...”

I am confused by that. First, understanding the personality of God as I do, I don’t understand how it can live apart from God. Second. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus died that we all may live, if we accept the free gift of eternal life. The wages of sin is death. And it is not about the death of the body, since even the saints “die” in that sense.

Over and over again the bible speaks of death of the non-believers. I honestly don’t know where we get the belief that one “lives” forever outside the presence of God. I confess it is what I used to believe.

[RobRoy]

I put that hierarchy in the “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20
sort of thing.

[woollyone]

“The Catholic Church’s authority is not a myth, unless you consider the Bible to be a myth too.”

Your comment is weak logic,
based upon a false premise,
using wrong deductive hermeneutic interpretation,
resulting in a wrong conclusion, and
wrapped in subtle, unnecessary sarcasm.

“It’s clear in this passage from Matthew...”
It is not anywhere near “clear”.

The verses you cited, Mat 18:15-19, are contextually about church discipline, and not about establishing CATHOLIC Church authority. Any attempt to claim such is WAY out of context, and quite nearly, a clever, albeit manipulatively false, teaching.

Jesus’ reference in the verses you cited is to the authority of two believers in disciplining a sinning brother. It is in the light that one person pointing out a brother’s sin might be in error, or percieved by the sinning brother to be in error. If so, then two believers in agreement, confronting the sinning brother have more credability and there is less chance of error as they together see the sin for what it is and are able to make a clear discerning presentation of the matter. Two believers together are a stronger testimony toward the sinning brother, than one brother alone. If there is no repentence, then, LASLTY, the church...the ecclesia...the gathering of believers...is an even stronger testimny and responsible for not allowing willful sin to be tolerated within the body. But NOWHERE is the ecclesia claimed to be the CATHOLIC church. Nowhere. (Except in the teachings of the catholic church, interestingly enough)

It has NOTHING to do with being anywhere near an admonition that the Catholic church is the fianal authority on Biblical truth. The term CATHOLIC isn’t even in the verses! Please, review your logic and your study inductively, rather than deductively.

According to your logic as applied to those verses, anyone, including the Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon, Nazarene, Jim Jones, or Banch Dividians could attemnpt to claim that same church authority, where it is not given.

So I stand upon my myth #6.
The Catholic church is not the final authority on biblical truth. For to claim so is to claim that all other, non-Catholics are apostate and sitting under apostate doctrine and apostate teaching. Are you ready to claim such a statement?

respectfully,
w

[Prophet in the wilderness]

The spirit of man never dies,,, the body dies.
When the Bible speaks of eternal death... it is speaking about being separated from God eternally... as in ? hell...
Eternal life is being with God in heaven for eternity.
Someone can be alive here on Earth physically, but, still be spiritually dead.... it's when someone becomes " BORN AGAIN " that they receive new eternal life......

[RobRoy]

>>Since my conversion, I have learned to love and devote much of my prayer time to the Mother of God through thanksgiving for her “yes” to God and extraordinary admiration for her courage and heroic response to pain and heartache.

That is reason number two that my wife had a hard time with Catholicism. It doesn’t reconcile very well with Matthew 6:9, or, for that matter, with Matthew 12 46-50.

I understand there is a fringe group that seriously believes that Mary was not only a virgin at Jesus birth, but remained celibate the rest of her life.

Mary was indeed blessed, but in the sense that one is blessed when they win the lottery. That is, her blessing was not due to who she was, but who God is. That is the same God that hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh was NOT blessed.

[RobRoy]

“The spirit of man never dies,,, the body dies.”

Please take this in the proper spirit: Where does the bible say that. I confess I used to believe that (and I used to be a pre-tribulationist) but when I started studying the subject specifically I could not come up with a compelling reason to believe that and, in fact, came up with a compelling reason to believe exactly the opposite.

I think that when the Bible speaks of “eternal death” it means the same thing as “eternally dead”. As in, you are gonna STAY dead.