To: Iscool
Us Catholics get to the point where we cut and paste because people keep making the same silly mistakes when it comes to interpreting Scripture. It's easier to cut and paste than to keep saying the same things over and over again, often to the same people, time and again -- kind of like beating your head against a wall because it feels so good when you stop. But we can cut and paste fairly easily. It's easier to do that when you belong to the Church that has one unified and coherent system of belief, rather than a bunch of heretics attempting to reinvent the wheel and going off in wild tangents, inventing interpretations of scripture as they go, without much regard for logic, history, tradition, or common sense. I highly recommend it. As for Revelations...
Rev. 1:6
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Yes, we are all priests in eternity, yoking our own redemptive suffering to Christ's, the High Priest we emulate. The Catholic Mass mirrors this same structure, with each attendant of the Mass a priest and the pastor/priest, who acts in persona Christi Capitis, taking on the role of High Priest.
As St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ."
Next...
Rev 20:6:
6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Again, absolutely, we are all priests. A priest or presbyter is one who makes a sacrifice for the Lord. Christ is High Priest in that He is both priest -- the one who performs the sacrifice -- and victim -- the one who is sacrificed. That's why at the Last Supper, He offers His OWN Body and Blood. By participating in that sacrifice through the Eucharist, we each become subordinate priests, yoked to his sacrifice and therefore saved from death. We participate as priests in the sacrifice by partaking of the hidden manna also discussed in Revelations. This is all consistent with Catholic teaching.
What about the 1000 years? I've already debunked premillenialism earlier in this thread -- using Scripture from Revelations which directly contradict this false doctrine --, so go back and read that.
I did not address the "1000 years" reference in Revelations, however, so I will do that here. Since premillenialism has shown to be false, obviously the 1000 years is not to be taken literally, like many other references to time in the Bible. John did not mean a literal 1000 years when he wrote this in Revelations. This becomes clear when you take a look at other books of the Bible, such as Jeremiah and Daniel, for example,
Daniel is a perfect example to use, because it contains two of only a few examples in the Bible where very clear and specific prophecies about time in the Bible can be independently and accurately verified to determine whether they literally occurred. In Daniel 8:14, a period of "twenty-three hundred days" is foretold. No serious scholars of Scripture pretent that history fulfills this prophecy in exatly 2300 days.
Something similar happens when Jermiah and Daniel discuss the prediction of a 70 year captivity of the Jews -- in Jeremiah 29:10 and Daniel 9:2, "the desolation of Jerusalem would last 70 years." Even literal premillenialists such as Walvoord, in Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation, admit that those 70 years were not literally 70 years. The closest anyone seems able to get is 68 years or 71 years.
Obviously God was aware of the exact time, so why the error? No, it's not a mistake. It's simply that the culture at that time had a different perception of numbers, and used them in different ways than we do today. Numbers in the Bible have interpretations that are more important than their literal meanig. In Daniel, the 70 is the result of multiplying 10 and 7. These are both symbolic numbers that signify perfection and completion. The captivity of Daniel and his fellow Jews was not exactly 7- years, but it certainly was "perfectly complete." That fact was more important in Biblical prophecy than the exact number of years. Symbolism took precedence over literalism.
Also in Daniel 8:14, the 2300 days are primarily symbolic. Take the number of days and they add up to about 6 years and four months. Seven years would be a prophetically ideal time for judgment. So 2300 days symbolize a shortened period of divine judgment, indicative of God's mercy.
The same goes for Revelations. 1000 is a result of 10 x 10. Ten cubed. Ten is the number of completion of perfecton. Ten years cubed symbolizes God's Kingdowm lasting until it was perfectly completed.
This same use of the number 1000 can be found elsehwere, in Psalm 50:10, "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, the wealth in every minute."
When the numbers of understood in this way, it is consistent with the Catholic, amillennial view. It means there will be a very long time until the end of time. That's it. Not a literal 1000 years until the end of time, just as much as there is neither a literal reference to 1000 hills in Psalm 50:10--just a lot of them.
108 posted on
06/22/2009 6:55:36 PM PDT by
bdeaner
(The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
To: bdeaner
rather than a bunch of heretics attempting to reinvent the wheel and going off in wild tangents, inventing interpretations of scripture as they go, without much regard for logic, history, tradition, or common sense.I always try to avoid these things as much as possible...Logic and common sense are for people that don't know anything...Tradition is meaningless and there is always more than one side to History...
But you forgot the main ones you guys rely on...Philosophy and intellectualism...
But yes, that is your religion...Logic, common sense, (your) history, (your) tradition, philosophy and a superior intellect, with very little regard for scripture...
I try to stick 100% with scripture...That's why you guys and I agree on nothing...
Something similar happens when Jermiah and Daniel discuss the prediction of a 70 year captivity of the Jews -- in Jeremiah 29:10 and Daniel 9:2, "the desolation of Jerusalem would last 70 years." Even literal premillenialists such as Walvoord, in Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation, admit that those 70 years were not literally 70 years. The closest anyone seems able to get is 68 years or 71 years.
Before you start trashing God's prophets, perhaps you should pay more attention to what they say...
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
70 years in the desolation of Israel...
Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
After 70 years...Jeremiah is quoting what God told him...After 70 years...Maybe 70 years and 4 months...Maybe 11 months...
Daniel is remembering what he read in the books of Jeremiah...So he doesn't quote word for word...He's going by memory...He's pretty darn close...
And who give a flip about the opinion of someone named Walvoord??? God says after 70 years...If Walvoord doesn't agree with God, Walvoord is wrong...
Daniel is a perfect example to use, because it contains two of only a few examples in the Bible where very clear and specific prophecies about time in the Bible can be independently and accurately verified to determine whether they literally occurred.
Hogwash...The coming of Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection was prophesied in the OT and was witnessed by over 500 eyewitnesses and recorded in scripture...That's more than sufficient proof of fulfilled prophecy and there are over two hundred of those...
In Daniel 8:14, a period of "twenty-three hundred days" is foretold. No serious scholars of Scripture pretent that history fulfills this prophecy in exatly 2300 days.
When the numbers of understood in this way, it is consistent with the Catholic, amillennial view. It means there will be a very long time until the end of time. That's it. Not a literal 1000 years until the end of time, just as much as there is neither a literal reference to 1000 hills in Psalm 50:10--just a lot of them.
So you guys pick 4 or 5 verses out of over 30,000 to prove that A millenialism is true, God doesn't mean what He says when He says it...
Real bible students have located hundreds of scripture in the OT that show there will be a physical reign of Jesus Christ on this earth for a real 1000 years with the Throne being in the City of Jerusalem...And all you have is one verse in Psalms and a lot of logic...
110 posted on
06/23/2009 7:49:14 AM PDT by
Iscool
(I don't understand all that I know...)
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