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To: Mr Rogers

>> While theologians may or may not agree with your summary of Catholic teaching - it certainly seems contrary to the practices of indulgences and penances - <<

Sola Fides is about the means of salvation. Indulgences never have anything to do with salvation. Pennances only ever do when they involve mortal sin, and then they are for reconciliation with the Church Militant (those on Earth).

>> The Filipino Catholics I’ve met most certainly believe in salvation by good works. I don’t know what it is called when Filippino Catholics whip themselves, or when it is done in Mexico, but it certainly doesn’t LOOK like forgiveness! <<

“Self-flagellation” is a suppressed piety in the Catholic church. Worshiping among Filipinos, I’m pretty sure they do not do the practice. (There are some wierd syncretic pagan practices, such as self-crucifixion, which make the news every Easter, but the Catholic Church works hard to put an end to this, since it is pagan, not Christian; I’ve never known of a single instance of it in America, and it would probably make the news, or certain Alex Murphy’s posts if it did.) The intent of self-flagellation is not for salvation or pennance, but for mortification (Rom 8:13, 1 Cor 9:27)

>> Luther’s attack on indulgences, as practiced, exploded across Europe because it resonated with common people’s understanding of common practice. <<

Luther’s attack on indulgences resonated across Europe because it promised to save a lot of princes a lot of money. Supporting the Catholic church meant supporting the war effort. Protestant princes never took up the sword against the Muslim, nor funded such efforts, which is why Protestantism has largely been unheard of in any of the lands which Islam invaded: Spain, Italy, Portugal, the Balkan states, Hungary, Austria, Poland, the Middle East, etc. Zwingli, Luther and Henry imposed their Protestantism from above; only Calvin and the Anabaptists can claim to have had support from the grassroots, and even they were most successful in lands where other Protestant leaders had opposed Catholicism from above (Knox’s Scotland, the Evangelischekirkes of Germany and the Germanic lowlands).

I don’t mean to overstate my case and assert Protestantism had no appeal among the masses, but that it was usually insufficient to gain critical mass or overcome state opposition (France certainly is a case where the state violently opposed Protestantism), unless the leaders of state promoted it, usually for fiscal reasons (Germany, England, Sweden).


87 posted on 06/20/2009 7:38:55 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

FYI - The Manila Times from last spring - although it almost reads as satire, and I have no doubt but that the Catholic Church does not approve:

“The Department of Health (DOH) on Holy Tuesday strongly advised penitents to first check on the condition of the whip they will use before they lash their backs with it this Holy Week.

The department warned that dirty whips could lead to tetanus and other infections.

Health Secretary Francisco Duque 3rd said that since it is hard to discourage flagellants from whipping their own flesh, the best penitents can do is ensure that their whips are well-maintained.

In San Fernando City, Pampanga, some 23 penitents, two of them women, have signed up to reenact Christ’s crucifixion in three separate improvised Golgothas in the city. Four penitents were scheduled to have themselves nailed on the cross...The ritual has become a tourist attraction and merited a support of P250,000 from the city government.”

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2008/mar/19/yehey/top_stories/20080319top5.html

In all fairness, Protestants in the Philippines also encounter a deep-rooted spiritism that frustrates Pastors.


88 posted on 06/20/2009 7:51:44 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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