Posted on 06/19/2009 10:03:34 PM PDT by dangus
Do you mean to say the Catholic Church is not a "real Christian church?"
Don't be bashful, show the real courage of your convictions.
No it's not true. It's a scabby sulfurous lie.
LOL
LOLOLOL
ROFLMTO!
Is that supposed to help your claim?
LOLOL
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
As a member of the fouler sex, I was not.
;OD
You wrote:
“The Holy Spirit is in all believers, he is our teacher, not the pope.”
The Holy Spirit guides the Church, not sectarians in their heresies and schisms. You’re in a sect. Period. Also, Christ chose the first pope. To deny that Christ or His chosen leader of the Apostles has authority is simply nonsensical.
You quote Paul. He was chosen as an Apostle by God - but cleared his teaching with Peter and the other Apostles.
“You’re going to trust your salvation to tradition, written by sinners ? we’re talking eternity Vlad !!!”
Which is exactly why I trust the Church Christ sent, you know, the one you trusted to pick the New Testament books for you.
“Find out what God says about the Queen of Heaven and worship of false Gods that your church has created of Mary.”
Mary is not a goddess, nor a false goddess, nor to be mistaken with anyone or any figure in the Old Testament. Only someone hellbent - and I am very deliberately using that word - on damning the Mother of God (yes, Jesus is God and Mary is His mother) would try to compare her to a false goddess mentioned in the Old Testament centuries before she was born.
But in the end, anti-Catholics like yourself, have no other recourse than to slander Christians, Christ, His Church and even His mother. In that one post you did all of that.
Ceiling. Watch.
You wrote:
“I never claimed ‘only scripture’ is divine doctrine, or taught in scripture. It does seem logical, however, that scripture is less likely to be biased by the error of man than a cumulative 1500 years of man’s tradition.”
Actually you’re completely wrong. Look at the historical Churches - those that can trace their roots back to Christ. Now think about Protestant sects. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches agree much more in their traditions than the Protestants do on their interpretations of scriptures. The differing views on Baptism alone among Protestants prove this to be the case.
“Indeed, if the traditions of man equal scripture, then why bother having scripture?”
Because God doesn’t work in vastly incomplete patterns. Christians have scripture, tradition and the living teaching authority of the Church. That is a complete teaching authority.
“How does one discern between traditions that are doctrine, and traditions that are merely opinion?”
Simple. You ask the Church if it has been defined.
“Oh wait - we’ll trust the Pope...even ‘tho many Popes have led lives that would qualify them as good politicians.”
And that would impact the Holy Spirit how? God works with men and yet we’re all unworthy. What makes you think the Holy Spirit can’t protect the Church in its teaching from bad men? What you’re doing is doubting the power of God.
“And what does one do when the traditions of man CONTRADICT scripture? For the entire thrust of scripture is that ALL have sinned, and ALL need a Savior.”
None of our traditions contradict scripture. You simply don’t know enough to know that. And we all do have a Savior. Jesus.
“If Mary could be without sin, and not need a Savior, then truly Christ died for nothing!”
See, this is what I mean. Why are anti-Catholics always railing against what they don’t know? Why would you assume that Mary’s sinlessness means she did not have Jesus as a Savior? Mary was simply saved in a differnt time and way than you and me. We were saved AFTER our birth. She was saved at her conception to prepare her for her special mission. Notice, I said she was SAVED. Mary has a SAVIOR. Her Son.
“If God could skip the sentence of Adam for her, and she could do right things and be justified before God, then Jesus died for no reason.”
No. You’re completely wrong. Mary has a Savior. Her sinlessness was made possible by Christ’s grace. She was justified by His grace and therefore has a Savior as much - in fact MORE SO - than you and I.
I don’t mind teaching you this, but doesn’t it bother you to know that you are condemning something that you can’t even correctly state? Notice, I never get Protestant teachings wrong. Yet here you are getting a Catholic doctrine wrong and you’re making arguments against something we don’t even believe. Does that bother you?
“Look at Romans 3: 9...”
Read it many times. I even understand it. I wish I could say the same for you: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709btb.asp
“I fail to see how it is possible to read that passage as meaning most have sinned, but Mary has not.”
That doesn’t surprise me: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709btb.asp
“I’ve read that when Paul quotes the Old Testament as saying “There is no one righteous, not even one;”, he used the Greek translation, which added the words ‘not even one’ to the translation from the Hebrew. That additional emphasis would seem to rule out interpreting this passage as ‘most have sinned, but Mary has not’. “
Uh, no. http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709btb.asp
“Indeed, I cannot think of a single passage anywhere that indicates anyone was sinless, except Jesus.”
Your inability to come up with a verse, and in fact, the absence of a verse, doesn’t imply the traditional, historical and authoritative Christian doctrine is wrong.
“Mary herself knew she needed saving, for in Luke we read, “46 And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...””
She was saved. That saving also meant she was sinless.
“Mary made no claim of being sinless, nor did anyone on her behalf. And when a woman tried to pay attention to Mary, Jesus himself redirected her (“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”).”
No. That is not what happened. The woman did not try to direct attention toward Mary. Mary was not even there as far as we know from scripture. What the woman said in Luke 11 is this:
27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Now, why would the woman say that? Because she WAS A WOMAN and each Jewish woman hoped to be the mother of the Messiah because of the blessing she would thereby bestow on Israel and the blessings she herself would receive. That’s why Mary said that future generations would call her blessed. Jesus pointed out that the blessings of the Messiah, however, extended to His spiritual family meaning those who believed and obeyed him and not just the woman who literally bore him. She was not trying to direct attention away from Jesus or only to Mary. Jesus essentially raised the stakes to tell her - the woman - that she too could receive those blessings even though she DID NOT give birth to the Messiah.
“What use is scripture, if you value the traditions of man above them?”
Who says I do? You? You can’t even get what you condemn correct and I doubt that you even care about getting it right. What you’re saying now is essentially another error. Scripture and tradition work together. Protestants use tradition too - all the time - but they deny it or use false traditions they created to satisfy their own lusts or to feed their own hatred of God’s Church.
“Why have a canon, if you ignore the plain teaching found therein?”
I don’t ignore those teachings. You do. Also, what else other than Protestant tradition formed your canon? The Church chose the books of the Old and New Testament. Protestants made their own canon. Tradition.
Want an example? Show me where the Bible teaches the Gospel of Matthew - by name - is said to be expired? Can you do that? Show me, in fact, where the Bible says Matthew wrote that Gospel. Can you do that?
Typo!
I meant to write:
“Want an example? Show me where the Bible teaches the Gospel of Matthew - by name - is said to be INSPIRED? Can you do that? Show me, in fact, where the Bible says Matthew wrote that Gospel. Can you do that?”
That’s what I get for writing when I should be in bed.
No, my friend is an honorable, honest man and YOU are a jerk. You refuse to recognize the truth. This is very sad. You give Catholicism a very bad name if you are represenative of most Catholics and fortunately, I know better because I happen to have relatives, and friends who are Catholic and they are far nicer than you.
Someone who “didn’t know there was a Bible until he was 40” is an idiot.
The lack of scripture to back up their church’s existence, is the reason.
You wrote:
“The Holy Spirit guides the Church,”
The Holy Spirit guides each believer, not an apostate church.
Your whole church is based on a couple of verses about Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the son of God and expaned it into a system that makes the bold and arrogant claim that their leader is infallible and that they have the power to ordain priests who are “alter Christos” - another Christ ???? The Bible warns us about people claiming to be another Christ !!
Add to that, these “priests” allegedly have the power to bring Jesus down from Heaven to become a peice of bread ??
Again your “church” has taken the words “do this in memory of me” and expanded it into this bizzare unbiblical ceremony where Jesus is sacrificed again, and again. WOW!
You quote Paul.
Yes I do, and you should read it again.
“Which is exactly why I trust the Church Christ sent, you know, the one you trusted to pick the New Testament books for you.”
You trust the church, but not Christ himself or his words.
“Find out what God says about the Queen of Heaven and worship of false Gods that your church has created of Mary.”
“Mary is not a goddess, nor a false goddess, nor to be mistaken with anyone or any figure in the Old Testament. Only someone hellbent - and I am very deliberately using that word - on damning the Mother of God (yes, Jesus is God and Mary is His mother) would try to compare her to a false goddess mentioned in the Old Testament centuries before she was born.”
You may not think Mary is a goddess, but your church believes and teaches that she should be treated like one.
Your church calls her the “Queen of Heaven” and proclaim that graces from God come only through her. Your church robs God of the glory that is ALL HIS. Your church also teaches that he is some tough guy and only can be appeased by Mary.
What did JPII say after he was shot “Mary help me, Mary help me, Mary help me.
Here is some Mary worhip from the catholic church.
Excerpts From
The Glories of Mary
St. Alphonsus de Liguori
Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur
Published on the Web with Permission
PRAYERS OF ST. ALPHONSUS
PRAYER OF CONFIDENCE IN MARY
Most Holy, Immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all.
I render thee my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank thee for all the graces thou hast conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from Hell, which I have so often deserved. I love thee, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear thee, I promise to serve thee always and to do all in my power to make others love thee also. I place in thee all my hopes; I confide my salvation to thy care.
Accept me for thy servant and receive me under thy mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain for me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of thee I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which thou bearest to God, I beseech thee to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech thee, until thou seest me safe in Heaven, blessing thee and singing thy mercies for all eternity. Amen. Thus, I hope. Thus, may it be.
DEDICATION OF ONE’S SELF TO MARY
Most Holy Virgin Mary, Mother of God, I am not worthy to be thy servant. But moved by thy marvelous compassion and my own desire to serve thee, here and now, in the presence of my guardian angel and the whole court of Heaven, I choose thee as my Lady, Advocate, and Mother. I firmly purpose to love and serve thee always, and to do all I can to inspire others to love and serve thee.
O Mother of God and my own most compassionate Mother, I beseech thee, by the Blood which thy Son shed for me, to receive me into the number of thy servants as thy child and servant forever. Assist me in all my thoughts, words, and actions in every moment of my life, so that every step I take, every breath I draw, may be directed to the greater glory of my God.
Through your powerful intercession, may I never again offend my beloved Jesus. Help me to love and glorify Him in this life. Help me to love thee also, dear and beloved Mother, and to go on loving thee forever in the happiness of Heaven.
My Mother Mary, I commend my soul to thee now, and especially at the moment of death. Amen.
DEDICATION OF A FAMILY TO MARY
Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Immaculate Queen and Mother, the refuge and consolation of all troubled souls! I kneel here before thee with my family and choose thee for my Lady, Mother, and Advocate with God.
I dedicate myself and all who belong to me to thy service forever. I beg thee, O Mother of God, to receive us into the company of thy servants. Take us under thy protection. Help us in life and at the hour of our death.
Mother of Mercy, I name thee Lady and Queen of my family and relatives, my interests and all my undertakings. Take charge of them; dispose of everything as it pleases thee.
Bless me and all my family. Never let any of us offend thy Son. In every temptation defend us; protect us in every danger; provide for us in the necessities of life; counsel us in doubt; comfort us in every sorrow, in every sickness, and especially in the final sorrow of death.
Never let the powers of Hell boast that they have enslaved any of those who here consecrate themselves to thee. Grant that we may all enter into Heaven to thank thee and, in thy company, to praise and love Jesus our Redeemer for all eternity. Amen. Thus, may it be.
PRAYER FOR PERSEVERANCE
QUEEN of Heaven, most Holy Mary, I was once a slave of sin, but now I consecrate myself to thee as thy client forever. I give myself to thine honor and service for the rest of my life. Do not reject me as I deserve, but accept me as thy servant.
I have placed all my hope in thee as my Mother. I bless and thank Almighty God, because in His mercy He has given me this confidence in thee. It is true that in the past I have shamefully fallen into sin; but I trust that, through thy prayers and the merits of Jesus Christ, I have been forgiven. But yet, my Mother, this is not enough. One fear I have which troubles me: that I may fall into sin again and lose the grace of God.
The dangers are constant; my enemies never sleep; and new temptations will assail me. O my Lady, protect me. Help me in the assaults of Hell, so I may never again offend thy Divine Son Jesus.
Let not the same thing happen again, that I lose my soul, Heaven, and God. This is the grace I beg of thee, O Mary; this is what I long for; obtain this grace for me through thy prayers. Amen.
Thus, I hope. Thus, may it be.
PRAYER FOR LOVE OF JESUS AND MARY
O MARY, of all creatures thou art the noblest, the purest, the holiest, the most sublime, the most beautiful. Oh, that all knew you, my Lady, and loved thee as thou deserveth!
I too, though I am a sinner, love thee, my most amiable Queen. And yet I love thee too little. I long to love thee with a greater and more tender affection, and it is thou who must obtain this grace for me. To love thee is a singular mark of predestination, a grace that God grants to those who are saved.
Then too, my Mother, I realize my great obligation to love thy Son; I see that He deserves an infinite love. Since thou desireth so much to see Him loved, obtain this grace for me -— a deep love for Jesus Christ.
I have no wish for earthly goods, for honors, for riches. I ask for that which thine heart desires far more, to love my God alone. Is it likely that thou wilt not help me in my desire, which is so pleasing to thee? Ah no, for even now thou art praying for me.
But I am consoled in thinking that so many Souls in Heaven and saintly people on earth love thee for thy goodness and beauty. Above all, I rejoice that God Himself loves thee alone, more than He loves all men and Angels together.
Pray for me, Mary; pray and never cease to pray until thou dost greet me in Heaven. There I shall possess my God forever . There too I shall possess my dearest Mother. Amen.
PRAYER FOR A HAPPY DEATH
Most Holy Mary, Mother all-good and all-loving, when I remember my sins and think of the moment of death, I tremble and scarcely know where to turn. But my hope is in the Blood of Jesus Christ and thy powerful intercession, O my loving Mother.
Comforter of the afflicted, be with me in that hour, console me in that great affliction. If even now the remorse over my sins, the uncertainty of pardon, the danger of relapse, and the rigor of Divine Justice so frighten me, how will it be with me then?
Ah my Lady, obtain for me before death comes a deep sorrow for my sins, true amendment, and fidelity to God for the remainder of my days.
And when at last the hour of death arrives, O Mary my hope, help me in that terrible anguish in which I will find myself. Strengthen me against despair over the remembrance of my sins, which the devil will call up before me.
Obtain for me the grace to call upon thee over and over in that dread hour, so that I may die with thy name and the name of thy most holy Son on my lips.Thou hast granted this grace to so many of thy clients. I too desire it and hope for it. Amen.
ASPIRATIONS FROM THE SAINTS AND HOLY MEN
Hail, most Benign Mother of Mercy. 1
Mother of God, remember me. 2
O Virgin and Mother, Mother of God, pray to Jesus for me. 3
O Lady, grant that Jesus may never cast me off. 4
O Mary, may my heart never cease to love thee, and my tongue never cease to praise thee.5
O Lady, by the love which thou bearest to Jesus, help me to love Him. 6
O Mary, be graciously pleased to make me thy servant. 7
O Mary, I give myself to thee without reserve; do thou accept and preserve me. 8
O Mary, abandon me not until death. 9
Hail, Mary, my Mother. 10
Holy Mary, my Advocate, pray for me. 11
In thee from my whole heart I have placed my hope. 12
It is not possible, O Lady, that thou shouldst abandon him who has placed his hopes in thee. 13
Thou hast only to will our salvation, and then it is not possible that we should not obtain it. 14
Hail, Daughter of God the Father; Hail, Mother of God the Son; Hail, Spouse of God the Holy Ghost; Hail, Tem[le of the whole Trinity. 15
1. St. Alphonsus de Liguori
2. St. Francis Xavier
3. St. Philip Neri
4. St. Ephrem
5. St. Bonaventure
6. St. Bridget
7. St. Jane Frances de Chantal
8. St. Mary Magdalen de Pazzi
9. Father Spinelli
10. Father Francis Brancaccio
11. Father Sertoria Caputo
12. St. John Damascene
13. St. Bernard
14. St. Anselm
15. Simon Garcia
But in the end, anti-Catholics like yourself, have no other recourse than to slander Christians, Christ, His Church and even His mother. In that one post you did all of that.
Ceiling. Watch.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
your insulting posts are very revealing !
I’m still praying for you !
Only in the very specific (and rare) circumstance of speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith. Catholics do not believe Benedict can do no wrong, that kind of concept is a common mistake and/or smear.
By the power of the Holy Spirit the host becomes the body and the wine the blood of Christ, not the other way around, and not by the power of the priest alone.
The prayers are taken directly from Scripture. Christ is NOT sacrificed again and again, it is the same one sacrifice on Calvary re-presented at every Mass.
Your criticisms of the Catholic Church do not even describe the Catholic Church, but rather a grotesque caricature of what Catholics actually believe.
I see you schooling the ignorant again today.
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