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Thank you for your graciousness in forgiving my intemperate outburst. And Petronski, asking forgiveness of those we have wronged is G-d's requirement of us. It has nothing to do with my own character.

I do not wish to get into this again so soon after losing my temper, but as for the Irish thing, I would point out that the worldwide clergy and theologians of the Catholic Church are extremely intellectual and, while evincing a hostility to rural American Fundamentalism, show no hostility toward the folk religion of simple Catholics. It is a common human characteristic to see our own shortcomings only in others, and intellectual Catholics are certainly more vocal against the alleged "simple-mindedness" of American Biblical Fundamentalists than Italian peasants wrapping snakes around a statue.

As to the positions of Lina Davis and "Ex-Gay Watch" being out of line with the official teaching of the Catholic Church as articulated a hundred and fifty years ago and perhaps officially unchanged since that time, I understand this. It was not my argument that Lina Davis or Ex-Gay Watch have the official Catholic position 100% right but that the Catholic Church has for whatever reason not thundered its official position to the skies sufficiently that there are absolutely no questions about it. Ironically, for all its disagreements, there are certain positions one does not have to ask any Fundamentalist of any denomination, because he knows the answer already. There is more unanimity among Fundamentalists on these issues than there is among Catholics. Yes, Lina Davis was a liberal, but why was the only liberal in the book produced by the Catholic Church? Again, I know "the church is made up of sinners" but there is such a massive disconnect between what the Catholic Church claims to be in theory and the way it teaches in the "real world." As has often been pointed out, if this were not the case abortion would either never have been legalized or would have been dealt with long before now. I do not myself accept sola scriptura, but the written words have never changed--unlike the spoken words of clerics who are always trying to keep allegedly unchanging teaching "relevant."

I am grateful to the Catholics on FR who defend the Written Word of G-d (even though their version is bigger than mine). But unfortunately, it is part and parcel of contemporary American (and perhaps world) religious culture that a plurality--and perhaps a majority--of Catholic FReepers reject not only creationism but total inerrancy itself. This is a simple fact. You may not see the posts, but I do. And such Catholics often invoke their Catholicism as they belittle the Bible and call Fundamentalists names: "Cletus," "brain-dead bibliolators," "Billy Bob's Glory Barn," etc. Meanwhile Protestant FReepers do not evince a pro-evolution or higher critical attitude--there simply is no sizable number of Protestant evolutionists on FR. And I do not understand the harmony that prevails between Catholics who accept and reject total inerrancy. Why isn't this a major issue? Why isn't it a defining issue every bit as much as abortion or the real presence? Instead when Catholic evolutionists/higher critics/non-inerrantists post their positions they are seemingly never challenged by Catholic FReepers who disagree. Wideawake was a blessed and much missed exception; Ethan Clive Osgoode is another (though so far as I know he doesn't argue too much with Catholic FReepers). There has to be a reason for all this. The Bible is simply not a nerve center for Catholics. When someone insults it they don't feel pain all over their bodies (allegorically speaking, of course!) they way they do when someone insults Mary or a consecrated host. In theory the Catholic Church treats the written and unwritten "Word of G-d" as equal fonts of revelation, but this is not the way it is in practice. However unofficial, there is something about the Bible that prevents it from becoming a "relic" or a holy thing of the same order as crucifixes and statues. Catholics don't seem to have any emotional investment in it. Am I making any sense at all? After all, even the piety of the simplest and most illiterate Catholics does not revolve around (or even seem to touch) the Bible.

I hope that I have been able to communicate my frustration without the hurtful and malicious language of my recent post.

I fear we shall never understand one another, and perhaps that is the way it should be.

In closing, I repeat: I know snakes can't talk. But one did once.