The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association ^ | 6/12/2009 | Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association

[RobbyS]

It seems as though you are your own final authority.

[Iscool]

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Jesus said He would keep the passover at a house...The disciples procured the house and made ready the passover...That would include preparing a real lamb...They ultimately sat down at the house where the passover meal had been prepared and ate the meal...

[refreshed]

The Word of God is my final authority. I clearly stated that. Your hope and trust is in fallible man and a corrupt religious organization. I’ll take my chances with the Word, thank you very much.

[Iscool]

Heb. 9:14 - Jesus offering Himself “without blemish” refers to the unblemished lamb in Exodus 12:5 which had to be consumed.

Couldn't be...In Exodus, the entire lamb had to be consumed...

The Gospel writers point this critical omission of the seder meal out to us to demonstrate that the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacrifice on the cross are one and the same sacrifice, and the sacrifice would not be completed until Jesus drank the Fourth Cup on the cross.

You're making stuff up...Jesus did not drink a fourth cup on the Cross...Here's what Jesus said...

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

That is NOT drinking something on the Cross...

Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25 - Jesus is celebrating the Passover seder meal with the apostles which requires them to drink four cups of wine. But Jesus only presents the first three cups.

Where did you get that from??? The lamb is one of the first things to be eaten...And they all finished the meal...They drank the appropriate courses of wine and sang the required hymns...There is no suggestion that they skipped out on any wine...

Matt. 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42; John 18:11 - our Lord acknowledges He has one more cup to drink. This is the Cup of Consummation which he will drink on the cross.

Nope...THAT cup has nothing to do with wine...

Psalm 116:13 - this passage references this cup of salvation. Jesus will offer this Cup as both Priest and Victim. This is the final cup of the New Testament Passover.

Again, this cup has nothing to do with wine or grape juice...

John 19:23 - this verse describes the “chiton” garment Jesus wore when He offered Himself on the cross. These were worn by the Old Testament priests to offer sacrifices. See Exodus 28:4; Lev. 16:4.

Lev 16:4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.

Exo 28:4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

I just can't picture Jesus walking around with a breastplate and an ephod...

1 Cor. 5:7 - Paul tells us that the Lamb has been sacrificed. But what do we need to do? Some Protestants say we just need to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior.

Yes, some Protestants and Jesus Christ...That's why some Protestants say that...

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Cor. 5:8 - But Paul says that we need to celebrate the Eucharistic feast. This means that we need to eat the Lamb. We need to restore communion with God.

Paul doesn't say anything that remotely resembles that...

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

He said unleavened bread of sincerity and truth...That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the flesh of Jesus Christ...Heb. 13:15 - “sacrifice of praise” or “toda” refers to the thanksgiving offerings of Lev. 7:12-15; 22:29-30 which had to be eaten.

Sorry Charlie, you can't distort that one...The definition is right in the verse:

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

John 19:34-35 - John conspicuously draws attention here. The blood (Eucharist) and water (baptism) make the fountain that cleanses sin as prophesied in Zech 13:1.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

In THAT day...That's not the church...It's the inhabitants of Jerusalem...The verse says that...

Just like the birth of the first bride came from the rib of the first Adam, the birth of the second bride (the Church) came from the rib of the second Adam (Jesus). Gen. 2:22.

Not at all true...the church was born from above, thru the shed blood of Jesus...No connection whatsoever between Adam's rib and Jesus' rib...

[Mr Rogers]

Since most of his posts were dishonest in their quoting, it is a bit disturbing to see you think they were “AWESOME”.

[Ottofire]

As stated in a prior post, transubstansiation is not found here unless you read back into the quotes the CURRENT RCC meanings.

I might suggest you look to those that in the ninth century argued against transubstantiation as the new doctrine swept the Roman Church. I would recommend “On the Body and Blood of Our Lord” by Bertram (or Ratramn) where he argues against it. Found here ( http://books.google.com/books?id=y1wEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=ratramn#PPP1,M2 )

[Diego1618]

Jesus said He would keep the passover at a house...The disciples procured the house and made ready the passover...That would include preparing a real lamb...They ultimately sat down at the house where the passover meal had been prepared and ate the meal...

You do realize that preparing for the Passover took, in most cases....one full day. In some others....two days. Passover preparation began at the sundown of the 13th and continued the entire day of the 14th. The lambs were killed in the temple "Between the Evenings" (noon and sundown) on the 14th. This was the exact time Our Lord was killed also.

When He told them to find a room for the feast they did not yet realize that He would be dead when the lamb was eaten. The Days of Unleavened Bread continued for another seven days after Passover Preparation [Leviticus 23:6] and it would have been normal for Him to provide a place for them for the observance. The Passover, itself....was eaten at the cusp of the 14th and the 15th.....24 hours after the Last Supper.

Notice [John 13:29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. Why would The Lord send Judas out to buy what was needed for the Feast (Passover) if they had all just eaten it? The lambs would be sacrificed the following afternoon and the Feast would occur 24 hours later while Our Lord would be spending His first night in the tomb.

The Last Supper was not a Passover Meal....it was a Supper.

[Iscool]

When He told them to find a room for the feast they did not yet realize that He would be dead when the lamb was eaten.

Didn't matter what they knew or didn't know...Jesus knew...And Jesus said get the room for the passover meal...And they did...

The Days of Unleavened Bread continued for another seven days after Passover Preparation [Leviticus 23:6] and it would have been normal for Him to provide a place for them for the observance.

But that's NOT what the scripture says...The scripture says Jesus told them to get a room and prepare for the passover which Jesus planned on attending...And He did...And it was a one day deal...They didn't get the room for a week...

The lambs were killed in the temple "Between the Evenings" (noon and sundown) on the 14th. This was the exact time Our Lord was killed also.

From what I've read, it is not necessary for the lamb to be killed in the temple...

Why would The Lord send Judas out to buy what was needed for the Feast (Passover) if they had all just eaten it?

The scripture says they HAD eaten it...Likely it was for the feast of unleavened bread...

[bdeaner]

They ate the bread, bitter herbs, eggs, etc., all part of the Passover meal, but never ate the lamb. The fourth cup is not drunk until the Lord asks to quench His thirst on the Cross. We complete the action of the Lord's sacrifice when we eat His Flesh as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic Feast.

[bdeaner]

Since most of his posts were dishonest in their quoting, it is a bit disturbing to see you think they were “AWESOME”.

Show, don't tell -- otherwise, they are empty words. Where is your evidence?

[bdeaner]

In 1 Cor 5:7, the point of the passage—especially when read in light of ALL the other verses bronxville cited—is that there is the clear reference to Christ as the sacrificial lamb. The verse states, “For our paschal lamb, Chirst, has been sacrificed.” This validates the previous analyses which link “remembrance” to “sacrifice.” And directly links the sacrifice of Christ to the paschal feast on Passover. To “remember” Christ then is to re-represent his eternal sacrifice as the slain Lamb of God. And we know for a fact that the Lord requires the Hebrews to EAT the lamb, as a requirement for escaping justice. The Lord didn’t tell the Hebrews to “symbolize” eating the lamb. He told them to eat the whole thing, or else their first born were to be taken, as were the Egyptian first born. The redemption of the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt foreshadows our redemption from original sin and death through our abiding in Christ in the Eucharistic feast.

[Mr Rogers]

Read posts 79 & 84. No Protestant denies Jesus is the Lamb of God, or the imagery it entails. However, almost every verse he described differs dramatically from his dishonest description.

To repeat: He wrote “1 Cor. 5:7 - Paul tells us that the Lamb has been sacrificed. But what do we need to do? Some Protestants say we just need to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. 1 Cor. 5:8 - But Paul says that we need to celebrate the Eucharistic feast. This means that we need to eat the Lamb. We need to restore communion with God.”

The actual scripture is: “For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8`Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

Do you REALLY think “Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” means the communion wafer becomes the flesh of Jesus that we must eat to be saved?

He wrote: “Heb. 13:15 - “sacrifice of praise” or “toda” refers to the thanksgiving offerings of Lev. 7:12-15; 22:29-30 which had to be eaten.”

But the scripture reads: “15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.”

No sane person could say his summary was a fair or accurate description of Hebrews 13:15. His summary was a deliberate lie.

He wrote: “John 7:38 - out of His Heart shall flow rivers of living water, the Spirit. Consequently, Catholics devote themselves to Jesus’ Sacred Heart.”

Scripture says, “ 37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.”

How could ANYONE claim this scripture is about the communion wafer becoming the actual flesh of Jesus is beyond me.

Those who deliberately lie about Scripture to make a point are deserving of greater condemnation than those who take communion lightly.

[Mr Rogers]

“He told them to eat the whole thing, or else their first born were to be taken...”

So is each wafer the whole Christ? Is Jesus wholly consumed by each participant at every communion?

And when God says he would gather us under his wings, does it mean God is a celestial chicken?

How far do you wish to take things? In Exodus, it is written, “5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, 6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.

7”Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it...10 And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. 11 In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD’s Passover.

So, should you spread the wine on the top of the door? Is Communion only to be done once a year, on the 14th day, at twilight? Must we gobble the Eucharist, while wearing sandals and with a staff in our hand?

We all agree that Jesus is the Lamb. But to assume that means the wafer becomes the actual flesh of Jesus is a stretch, to say the least. And to cite references to scripture, and then summarize with meanings totally foreign to the text, is dishonest.

[Veeram]

ping

[bdeaner]

In reference to your questions -- "So is each wafer the whole Christ? Is Jesus wholly consumed by each participant at every communion" -- the answer is yes. Does the Eucharist taste like beef? No. And I think the best clarification on these kinds of issues can be found in the work of St. Thomas Aquinas.

A few passages from St. Thomas’s greatest work, the Summa Theologiae, Part III

Q. 74, Art 1. “Bread and wine are the proper matter of this sacrament. And the reasonableness of this is seen, first, in the use of this sacrament, which is eating: for, as water is used in the sacrament of Baptism for the purpose of spiritual cleansing, since bodily cleansing is commonly done with water; so bread and wine, wherewith men are commonly fed, are employed in this sacrament for the use of spiritual eating.”

Q. 75, Art 2, ad 3. “Christ’s body is not in this sacrament in the same way as a body is in a place, which by its dimensions is commensurate with the place; but in a special manner which is proper to this sacrament. Hence we say that Christ’s body is upon many altars, not as in different places, but sacramentally: and thereby we do not understand that Christ is there only as in a sign, although a sacrament is a kind of sign; but that Christ’s body is here after a fashion proper to this sacrament.”

Q. 75, Art. 4. “Yet this change is not like natural changes, but is entirely supernatural, and effected by God’s power alone. . . . Hence this is not a formal, but a substantial conversion: nor is it a kind of natural movement: but, with a name of its own, it can be called transubstantiation.”

Q. 75, Art. 5. “It is evident to sense that all the accidents of the bread and wine remain after the consecration. And this is reasonably done by Divine providence. First of all, because it is not customary, but horrible, for men to eat human flesh, and to drink blood. And therefore Christ’s flesh and blood are set before us to be partaken of under the species of those things which are the more commonly used by men, namely, bread and wine.”

Q. 76, Art. 1. (Whether the Whole Christ is Contained under This Sacrament?) Objection #2 says “Only the flesh and blood of Christ are contained in this sacrament. But there are many other parts of Christ’s body, for instance, the nerves, bones, and such like.” Thomas’ response: “It is absolutely necessary to confess according to Catholic faith that the entire Christ is in this sacrament.”

[Veeram]

Exerpt from “The Faith of millions” by John Anthony O’Brien

“When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. The priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man, not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.”

[FourtySeven]

An excellent post, thank you.

[Mr Rogers]

Is the wine transformed into blood? If so, how does this align with the Law?

“Kosher animals must be ritually slaughtered in order to remain kosher (Deut. 12:21). The primary goal of ritual slaughter is to rid the animal of as much blood as possible, for ingesting blood is forbidden by the Torah. Ritual slaughter involves cutting the animal’s throat with an extremely sharp knife with no nicks (this is regarded as the most humane method of slaughter). The meat must then be kashered, or made kosher, by hanging the carcass to drain as much blood as possible. The meat must then be washed, salted (”kosher salt” is designed for this purpose), and cooked well-done.”

At Passover, the blood was spread on the lintels, not drunk.

[bdeaner]

An excellent post, thank you.

THANKS! Give the glory to the Lord! I put the time into this post in honor of Corpus Christi and as a penance for the many years I did not believe in the Real Presence. When I began to seriously study the Scriptures -- at that time, as convert to Evangelical Christianity--, my eyes were opened and I returned to the Church. Thank the Lord.

God bless.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You said he did so because of transsubstantiation. You were wrong. Period.

Because of transubstantiation? What does that even mean?

Anytime someone says Genesis "reads like Gilgamesh" I don't have to know anything more about his other motivations.

If you think the literal truth of Genesis is important then why are you attacking me and defending bdeaner? Why are you implying one position is as good as the other? Is it a mere "circling of the wagons" among Catholics? I could understand that up to a point, but to do so when a co-religionist is saying that Genesis "reads like Gilgamesh?"

I notice you have not replied to the information on traditional Jewish chronology. That is good, as I assume that you accept this as Jewish chronology, whether you personally agree with it or not. Here are a couple little gems for you: when Noach died Abraham was 58 years old. This is alluded to in Noach's name (nun-chet) which has the numerical value of 58. Oh, and after Cain killed Abel Adam lived apart from Eve for 120 years, so during that time only the Cainites multiplied. He was shamed back into joining her (and producing Shet) after presiding at the trial of Lemekh). Oh, and when Adam died Metushelach was 243 years old. All very nice bits of information, and didactic as well as factual.