Posted on 05/27/2009 1:01:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
John Calvin was a Frenchman, but he is being remembered in Geneva this week because it was here that he built Calvinism. Invited to reform the city in 1541, almost as what would now be called a management consultant, he formed an alliance with the city fathers. Over the next 20 years of preaching and pastoring they turned this tiny city, with a population then of only 10,000, into a model of church government and theology which has changed the world.
His followers now form the third-largest Christian grouping in the world. The world alliance of reformed churches claims 75 million members, and while this is a lower headline figure than the Anglican Communion's 80 million, it is not inflated by 25 million nominal Anglicans in Britain.
Although Calvinism is shrinking in western Europe and North America, it is experiencing an extraordinary success in China. I spent some time on Monday talking to the Rev May Tan, from Singapore, where the overseas Chinese community has close links with mainland China. The story she told of the spread of Calvinist religion as an elite religion in China was quite extraordinary. There may be some parallels with the growth of Calvinism in South Korea, where the biggest presbyterian churches in the world are to be found, but it's absolutely unlike the pattern in Africa and Latin America. There, the fastest growing forms of Christianity are pentecostal, and they are spreading among the poor.
But in China neither of those things are to be true.
Calvinists despise pentecostalists. They shudder at unbridled emotion. If they are slain in the spirit, it is with a single, decorous thump: there's to be no rolling afterwards. And in China, the place where Calvinism is spreading fastest is the elite universities, fuelled
(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...
Wait a minute! Our PC culture counts on us being wimpy.
My younger son got in trouble earlier this year for pointing out to his religion teacher that the "coexist" sign she had posted was wrong. He kept asking the teacher why Christians should let others believe they were equals when they would not be saved unless they came to Jesus. Eventually the sign came down.
The PC culture can't handle direct confrontation on the facts. Instead, they count on Christians not speaking up.
A great point.
FWIW, I was raised Episcopalian refused confirmation and later became a Baptist. I'm not sure about Presbyterians, but Baptist preachers will slam their hand down look you in the eye and tell you "you're going to hell if you don't trust Jesus". I like the direct approach.
With or without your repentance? Did you have any choice whether to repent?
when I disobeyed my father, I didn’t lose my status as his child, but it sure strained our relationship.
Did you learn anything from that? Did it have any affect on your choices in the future?
Those are very good questions, questions every person recognizing (and holding) predestination has asked themselves. But, if you are committed to cling to that which the Scriptures teaches, rather than that which satisfies your sensibilities (when did being called a “sinner” ever feel right?), then let’s plow into this and see what answers may be available.
The concept of predestination may be seen from a number of angles in the Scriptures. First, the plain words of the text set it out repeatedly. See post #18 by sr4402. The text makes it abundantly clear that God has set a destiny in place for every person.
Second, predestination, if it is true, is actually just a subset of the absolute control that God exercises over His creation. If everything is created out of nothing (John 1:1 - 5) then this Ex Nihilo creation is not a refashioning of existing material, but a real making of all that is out of nothing. If this is true, then as the Bible says, He upholds everything by the word of His power. Your mind, your will, your every move is really developed with the underpinnings of His creative support. That is why Paul says, “We live and move and have our being in Him.”
Third, predestination is a forward looking element of God’s foreknowledge. If He knows what is going to happen tomorrow, can it possibly not occur exactly as He envisions? Is He ever surprised by an event? The Scriptures are replete with evidence that God knows exactly what will happen and when. Peter’s denial of Jesus (Luke 22). The crucifixion (Acts 2). Etc. We have every reason to believe He knows because He plans and He executes. Isaiah 14:24.
Fourth, predestination is utterly believable, when one recognizes that remarks of control subsume remarks of man’s choice. Early in the Scriptures we are compelled to deal with this issue when it appears as though God doesn’t know something important. In Gen. 3, is God really looking for Adam when He asks, “Adam, where are you?” Or is this just a way to demonstrate that Adam has fooled himself into believing he could hide his shame? For that matter (watch the arrows fly), if Jesus is really the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, does this not imply that Adam was destined to sin? And when the Scripture reports that we are to “choose” something, we find close by a remark which subsumes this “choice” into something directed by God. Proverbs 21:1 “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.” How can this be if God orders the king to be honorable? Because He is directing both the commands and their execution.
Fifth, (and related to fourth) when text is dealing with men “choosing” read the actual text carefully (don’t read into it) and read on before you decide what it is getting at. Notice John 3:16 is not an “offer” but a “statement”. “For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son (no offer yet), that whoever beleives in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (no offer).” This is a statement of fact. Those who believe will be saved. Then read on. John 6:44 & 64 says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” Now we see who will believe. The reason that this is so important is that this describes a transaction between the Father & Son, not you and the Father. If you have been given to the Son, you will be raised on the last day...without fail.
Paul clearly knows that the Romans will find this all as frustrating as you do when he writes, “You will say to me then, ‘How does He still find fault, for who resists His will?’” But, the answer is...that is God’s perogative, since He is God. You are the clay, He is the molder.
Does any of this help? Predestination is not a reason to say, “Then who cares?” Rather, “It no longer puts the emphasis on me generating faith, but rather salvation is something that operates on me, in me, around me.”
And, finally, predestination sets one free to enjoy being altered by the Master Designer as He remakes me before my very eyes! I can enjoy the process, certain that He cannot fail to get me there. I can move and not fear my failure, but rightly fear His control. Can I just live sloppy? No, because this great Redeemer is worthy of more than this, and He will compel a real believer to obey Him. And, yes, even this thought of obedience is generated by His management over my life. I shout with Paul, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God at work INSIDE of you, both to WILL (choose) and to WORK (execute) for His good pleasure.” Phil. 2: 12, 13.
Grace be with you.
I’m glad to hear that. I’d hate to be separated from my FR Calvinist FRiends.
I’ve never seen anyone BEG for prayer and I’m a charismatic Christian. Love it when men hug other men. It’s broken down many barriers. I’ve cried in church when something that’s said has touched me or convicted me. Not a bad thing. I don’t sob out loud or make a fuss. I just sniff a lot and use a lot of kleenex, LOL.
I don’t think most people are drawing attention to themselves. I don’t always raise my hands in church but when I do it’s not to cause others to look my way. I sit in the back anyway.
I haven’t either. We’re pretty mild.
David danced before the Lord in worship.
Early in the Scriptures we are compelled to deal with this issue when it appears as though God doesn’t know something important. In Gen. 3, is God really looking for Adam when He asks, “Adam, where are you?” Or is this just a way to demonstrate that Adam has fooled himself into believing he could hide his shame? For that matter (watch the arrows fly), if Jesus is really the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, does this not imply that Adam was destined to sin?
An honest reading of the text results in that very fact. Therefore we are not to fear that reality, but understand it, knowing that it, too, somehow will reveal more of God and our place in His world. What that fact actually says is that from before time God loved the believer, named and numbered according to His good pleasure, so much that He entered into human life and died to pay for every one of our sins before we were even born.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romaqns 9:11
No wonder the temporal powers of this life work to obscure that fact. The real sadness is that even parts of Christendom deny this blessed truth.
Speaking rhetorically, would you say that someone who does not believe in the trinity is saved? How about someone who does not believe that our Lord Jesus actually died for their sins? Do you see the problem? Our understanding of God and our Lord Jesus most certainly affect our salvation. A person must have a correct understanding of their position with God, the position of Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit, in order for them to understand their sinful position. This is why a correct understanding of the Trinity is so important. This is what a "coming to a saving knowledge" is all about in the scriptures (please note that Paul does not call it a "saving experience").
By the same token, assuming one has a "saving knowledge" with our Lord; we still (all of us) hold erroneous views to varying degrees. Like the Pilgrim in Pilgrim's Progress, we are to seek after these truths and discard the rest.
Does true Christianity require believing in the five points? Speaking as one who for 33 years never heard of Calvinism as a Christian, I would answer "No". I'm one of these people who knew the moment I was saved but had never heard of Calvinism.
That being said, I can publicly attest that for 33 years the scriptures, taken in total, were impossible to understand. John and Romans were a complete mystery as well as trying to reconcile God of the OT with our Lord Jesus in the NT. Many times I simply would use the standard, "Well, I guess it will be explained when I get to heaven." It was only once I stumbled onto Calvin's writings, confirmed by Augustine, that it all became clear. My choice was to either accept the obvious and ONLY explanation, or reject it. To me Calvin's comprehensive teachings was the obvious conclusion and in most cases (not all) is the correct interpretation of scripture.
I understand some very good (and better than me) Christians may sincerely reject Calvin's teachings. A person can either accept what is the obvious conclusion, that God chooses those whom He will to be saved; or they will remain in spiritual darkness waiting for the day that someone will explain to them that God chooses those whom He will. This doesn't affect their salvation and, in many cases, they bear a heck of a lot more fruit than I.
So what good is having a "right" understanding"? How this affects anything I don't know. However, those who are going to teach the word (which all of us do to varying degrees) are warned that we will be held in a higher degree of judgment. It doesn't affect our salvation but I believe that God takes our teaching very seriously and He expects us to come to the right knowledge of Him.
But...then again as Augustine would have said...as a Calvinist I believe that God must grant us the ability to come to this knowledge. :O)
Why Alex...you sound positively like a RINO. :O)
Amen.
I can publicly attest that for 33 years the scriptures, taken in total, were impossible to understand. John and Romans were a complete mystery as well as trying to reconcile God of the OT with our Lord Jesus in the NT. Many times I simply would use the standard, "Well, I guess it will be explained when I get to heaven." It was only once I stumbled onto Calvin's writings, confirmed by Augustine, that it all became clear. My choice was to either accept the obvious and ONLY explanation, or reject it. To me Calvin's comprehensive teachings was the obvious conclusion and in most cases (not all) is the correct interpretation of scripture.
I love to hear your story, Harley. It's always so positive and affirming. God is ever gracious to those He calls to be numbered among His family.
Why grandpa - what a big nose you have! }:P
Terrific! Give your son big hugs from me and keep one for yourself for raising such a fine young man who obviously kneels to none but Christ.
By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet." -- Proverbs 3:19-24"The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
lol. We probably could use a little more of that in the Presbyterian church. 8~)
- Francis Schaeffer, A Christian Manifesto, page 2. "...These two world views [Christian theism vs naturalist, impersonal matter or energy shaped by impersonal chance] stand as totals in complete antithesis to each other in content and also in their natural results--including sociological and governmental results, and specifically including law. It is not that these two world views are different only in how they understand the nature of reality and existence. They also inevitably produce totally different results. The operative word here is inevitably. It is not just that they happen to produce different results, but it is absolutely inevitable that they will bring forth different results..."
Amen! To say EVERYTHING is of and for and through God is STILL to limit His eminence. And as Tertullian asked, "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?"
LOLOL!!!
“Did you learn anything from that? Did it have any affect on your choices in the future?”
I don’t know where you are going with this. The question, I thought, concerned predestination. My reply was that predestination was of God in purposing some for His glory. and that sin does not affect status, but relationship. God adopted believers in Christ. Man cannot choose to be a child of God any more than a child can choose his parents. It is by God granting the right to become His child; therefore one cannot choose to emancipate oneself from being a child of God, that is the principle that Jesus taught when He said “no one can pluck him out of His hands” or Paul’s statement in Romans 8 that “nothing can separate us from the love of God”. The parable of the Prodigal Son is an example of this. Though the son rejected the father, humiliated him in front of the family and friends, took his inheritance which was tantamount to the son’s disowning the family, yet he was still his father’s son.
Although the believer’s sanctification is perfect in Christ positionally, considered completely sanctified in a positional sense (1 Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Heb. 10:10 By the will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.) it is not perfect in this life experientially. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord does not eradicate the tendency to worship and serve the creation more than the Creator. In many ways and at different times a believer yields to temptation. But sin does not have dominion over him. He has the God-given ability not to sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ; 2:1, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.). By grace he can effectively counteract his own inner tendency to idolatry and selfishness. 1 Cor. 10:13-14, There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Jn. 4:4, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world)
The battle to love God above all else and one’s neighbor as oneself is never finished in this life. But the objective of nothing less than Christlike holy love motivates the Christian to employ every available resource in the progressive development of holiness in character and conduct. (Phil. 3: 12-14, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 1 John 3:1-3, Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.)
What I have learned and am learning is in me dwells no good thing, but God is gracious, merciful and forgiving. In the face of that I do repent of my sins but never question my status as His child.
Romans 9
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Cordially,
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