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To: Alex Murphy

OK, I’m gonna don my flamesuit and jump right into this:

The problem with Calvinism is this:

The Calvinist doctrine of absolute depravity ends up not only affirming the doctrine of original sin, which is true, but an absolute denial of prevening grace. Prevening graces are ways God works in a sinner’s life to draw him towards salvation, before he actually is saved. For instance, a just society bans pornography and extra-marital sex by the grace of God through the virtuous stivings of the saved. An un-regenerated sinner therefore avoids addiction to pornography or sexual promiscuity and therefore is less hardened against Christianity.

In addition, there’s the notion of “once saved, always saved.” Even if someone thinks they’re saved, if they commit a grave sin, they must have only intellectually assented to salvation, and therefore be mistaken.

The result of these two doctrines is a black and white world which works well for youth. And I don’t mean to say that black and white is inherently fallacious; I think we need more willingness as a society to see certain things as inherently, objectively good and others as inherently, objectively evil.

But even the saved sin. Catholics call this “concupiscence.” Christ has removed the eternal stain of original sin, but we still have a tendency to commit our own sin. So Catholics believe in confession, and practices designed to lessen concupiscence, such as mortification of the flesh through fasting, abstinence, etc. (In fact, many Calvinists also practice such means of perfection, but as mere worship, not purgation.) Recognziing the need for constant spiritual purification and the existence of prevening grace, Catholicism still retains black and white moral values, while recognizing that the unsaved may be progressing towards salvation, while the saved may still falter.

The Calvinist has no such recourse. At youth, this is a great motivator towards sinlessness. When he commits a grave sin, the Calvinist can by redoubling the sincerity of his faith assure himself that he is now saved, even though he once was a wretch. The problem comes as the Calvinist gains experience. He sins, he repents, he sins again. If he holds that he was not a true Christian before committing a sin, then nothing he did before that sin had any merit. That’s a bitter pill to swallow. If he’s young, he will still have profound developmental stages he can pass through and suppose that on the other side of a stage, he wasn’t truly saved but now he is. But as he attains stability, it becomes harder to accept that his life was pure black before his sin, and pure white after. With each grave sin, he is more and more challenged to find some way to prove to himself that his life is somehow radically different than before his sin.

On the other hand, if he is once and for all saved, then the sin must not have been a grave sin. Aaahhh, there’s the downfall. Worse, it can’t be a matter of trying harder, because, remember, there is nothing he can do to cooperate with grace, according to Calvinism.

Masturbation? Who is hurt, and where does the bible specifically condemn masturbation?

Divorce? Moses wouldn’t’ve allowed it if it were really that evil... you must be misinterpreting Jesus.

Pre-marital sex? It’s an expression of love. As long as it’s not adultery. OK, it’s a sin, but not a grave one.

Homosexuality? Well, there’s one we can all agree on. Well, those of us who are heterosexuals, anyway.

The problem is that it’s all these elders who have compromised their idealism that make up the church leaders. Of course, there’s plenty of issues that they can agree on:

Funding Israel is evil.

Using paper bags is evil.

Eating fatty foods is evil.

Fox News is evil.

All this nonsense, of course, drives away all the young ones to form their own denomination, or go non-denominational.


37 posted on 04/29/2009 8:56:44 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; raynearhood

pinging myself to reread this reply and try to understand it.

I’m going to have questions, ‘cause I just ain’t getting what you’re saying. I think I have a general idea, but...

I’ll get to it in a few hours.


38 posted on 04/30/2009 6:48:02 AM PDT by raynearhood ("Naysayers for Jesus" - Charter Member)
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To: dangus
It's a good post exploring words I haven't studied . . . concupiscence and prevening grace. The “error” I see is you attributing feelings you haven't experienced since you are not a Calvinist; assuming what Calvinists must do and how they must feel. A Calvinist could make the same sort of argument and assumptions about a Catholic who sins, confesses, repeats the sin, confesses, repeats the sin, confesses. Isn't the core of how a Christian reacts to sin repentance and maintaining your relationship with God?
44 posted on 05/02/2009 8:12:35 AM PDT by Woebama (Paying for my neighbor's mortgage and Wall Street's bonuses sure is hard.)
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