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"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11). I've heard the well-known conditionalist author Dr. Edward Fudge's explanation of this verse ... (

Wherein Fudge says contradictorally it's not necessarily forever and ever. I think Fudge is fudging. "Forever and ever" is forever and ever. Rev 20:10 says that Satan and all who follow him will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.

Time is a current flowing in an ocean called Eternity - Robroy.

So, with that “belief”, what would “forever and ever” really mean?

Forgot to include this: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&t=KJV#conc/11

Wherein Fudge says contradictorally it's not necessarily forever and ever. I think Fudge is fudging. "Forever and ever" is forever and ever. Rev 20:10 says that Satan and all who follow him will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.

Let's look at that verse and it's context....

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The only three entities specifically mentioned being tormented forever and ever are:
The Devil,
The Beast,
The false Prophet.
After hell is emptied and the souls judged on whether or not their name is in the book of life, they are thrown in the lake of fire and experience...

The second death. What is the first death? The end of physical existance. What is the second death? The end of spiritual or soul existance.

The same reasoning on Revelations 14:11 talking about the smoke of there torment going up forever and ever. It also says that the followers of the beast and his image have no rest day or night. Is there day or night in hell? I don't think so. This verse seems to be talking about the fact that worshipers of the Beast didn't find peace and contentment, but turmoil and unrest.

While I'll admit, that is a tricky verse, it isn't as clear cut as we have been lead to believe. Revelations is a tricky chapter, filled with flash forwards, flash backs, flash side ways, with lots of symbolism mixed in. If the whole of the New Testament reinforce this "torment forever and ever" theme, I would say the weight of evidence would be against annihilation, but in my renewed look at the evidence, torment forever and ever isn't the strongest answer.

One last thing, before I go. I used to argue with SDA's against annihilation, but now I agree with them on that. I am not now, nor plan to be an SDA. While I know some who are Christians, I still am at odds with them on their "Sabbath" only worship and their salvation through works doctrines.