Posted on 04/22/2009 12:10:00 PM PDT by Colofornian
... placemarker
This is not the first time this topic was raised I remember drstevej loved to flash that stupid OT verse which has nothing to do with the NT that was an OT conditions.
Is this the "stupid" OT verse you are referring to?
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6).
Really, calling the WORD OF GOD STUPID is not a good thing, Resty.
The sacrifice of Christ did away with the sacrifices of the OT law, it did not do away with our sinful nature, which is what this verse talks about. There are 3 main points in this verse:
1. We are all unclean (we have a sinful nature brought about by the Fall of Adam).
2. Our 'good works' are not acceptable to God, they too are unclean things that require a sacrifice (explained further down).
3. Our iniquities (sins) take us away from God.
When one is Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as well as when receiving sacarment this is to wash off the dirt of the world that is one of the reasons it is taken!
Another is to always remember Him in the course of ones life that week until they meet agian.
Baptism does cleanse us of sin, but you are missing the true point of Baptism. Baptism is an OUTWARD sign of an INWARD change. It is symbolic
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4).
It is a symbolic dying of the old self and a resurrection to our new life in Christ. Christ changes us from the inside out. We live for HIS glory, not to earn our own "exaltation". Baptism is a public statement of our faith in Christ, not in a church.
Forgiveness of sins is not the purpose of Communion (sacrament). It is symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ. That is why the elements ARE important. Bread and Wine/Grape Juice is symbolic of the Body and BLOOD of Christ. Notice that he specifically speaks of the "fruit of the vine". Water is NOT the fruit of the vine.
We are to repent of our sins (called an examination of conscience or by confession in certain traditions) PRIOR to taking communion, We are absolved fully when we repent and ask God for forgiveness. Only then may we take communion worthily.
Matthew 26:26-30 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1 Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
1 Cor. 11: 23 - 29 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
So many are under the impression by calling themselves flithy rags it is like self-flatulation which is a form of phony humility!
I think you mean "self-flagellation", although I will never type "self-flagellation" (which happens more often than you would think) again without thinking "self-flatulation". ROFL. Thank you for that.
"self-flagellation" means to punish oneself by whipping (or beating). It was common in early Monastic circles and hit a "fever pitch" with the "Flagellants" in the 13th Century. While the group was banned by the Catholic Church in the 14th Century, many of the stricter Monastic groups still practice it, although not as severely.
It is not "phony humility". I am sincerely humble before my Lord. We are wretches without Christ. Our good works are filthy rags to God. That is not phony, that is biblical.
No unclean thing can enter Heaven so if one thinks they are filthy rags they surly can not enter Heaven! One is either are filty rags or born again one can’t be both!
BINGO! We are all unclean by nature. We are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. He makes us perfect, not our works. Our works, without Christ, are all "filthy rags". Our works, done for our glory (exaltation or our own salvation) are "filthy rags".
Here is a great explanation of how this OT verse is connected to Christ and our works:
Because God compares the good works of men to be like those soiled cloths, it is obvious that those good works of men are also repulsive to Him. They are unclean and must stay outside of His presence. They could never be pleasing to God because of His revulsion to them.
God is repulsed when men and women attempt to please Him with their good works. Again, our works are an unclean thing. When a woman, unclean because of her monthly cycle, finished the cycle, she had to offer a sacrifice before she was again clean and allowed back into society. By the same toke, since our works are unclean and compared to soiled menstrual clothes, a sacrifice must be made to cleanse them. Since all of our works are like soiled menstrual cloths, then our own works cannot cleanse them (if it seems circular, it is, because it is impossible for our works to cleanse our works). The sacrifice of our own works is insufficient.
Since our works are unclean, they have the exact opposite effect than the effect we desire. Instead of pleasing God, which would allow us into His presence, (in our way of thinking) they actually deeply offend God. Those works disgust Him. There is no way He will accept them.
So, if you are trying to compile enough good works to make up for your sins, forget it. If you wish to make sure your list of good works is longer than your list of bad works, you are in trouble. It will not happen. You are trying to put your good works in the Good Works Column in order to make that list longer that the one in the Bad Works Column. Since your works, good or bad, are as soiled menstrual cloths, and therefore bad in God's eyes, they are actually all going in the Bad Works Column, making it longer and longer. The point here is, you can never do enough good works to get into Heaven. Indeed without Christ you can do no good works. If all your works are as soiled menstrual cloths, the more you accumulate, the worse the stench gets in God's nostrils. If you are going to church occasionally and doing a good deed or two once in a while and hoping those things will get you into Heaven, you are out of luck. It will never happen.
However, God has provided a perfect sacrifice for us. His Son, Jesus Christ, was a perfect and sinless man who died in our place, which can take our sins away. When we believe on Him that He died and rose from the grave three days later and is alive today we are saved. His work was perfect while our works are filthy. Now, after He saves us, the works we do are no longer as filthy rags.
Christians are still human and can still do bad works. But their salvation is not dependent upon a list of good and bad works. Their salvation is based on the One Good Work that Christ did at Calvary. When Christians do bad works, which are really sin, then the blood that Christ shed at Calvary covers their sins and they are forgiven their sins. Conversely, when Christians do works that are good, those works are acceptable to God.
If you are not a Christian, that is, if you are not saved, then any and all attempts you make to please God actually displease Him. If God is displeased with you, you will never get into Heaven. Stop bagging up soiled menstrual cloths to present to God in hopes that He will let you into heaven based on those bags. It is not going to happen. You are wasting your time doing good works without Christ. They will do you no good.
http://www.bibleword.org/rags2.shtml#a
Salvation is not just Resurrection as the LDS teach. Salvation in Christian terms is equivalent to the LDS concept of Exaltation, to be in the presence of God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit for ETERNITY. This is salvation from death and hell. How exactly are we saved from death and hell? By faith alone, not works. Faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, not the LDS Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Resty, you need to give up the "filthy rags" of the secret handshakes and oaths of the Temple, of the idea that you can IN ANY WAY earn glory of any type, and of the laundry list of "good works" the LDS demand. All Christ demands is that you believe in Him ALONE for your salvation, not in any denomination. Then and ONLY then, will your good works be acceptable to God.
It is simple. Humble yourself before the Lord and sincerely pray this prayer and believe it (and prayer is a conversation NOT a work) and you can be Born Again, saved completely by the Blood of Jesus. You can have your "calling and election made sure".
A SINNERS PRAYER
Heavenly Father:..........................................................................
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you ALONE all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word (The Bible) is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus not by anything i do! In Jesus Name, Amen.
ping to #882
There is no such thing as an infallible prophet unless you want to include Jesus Christ.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sorry, Resty but your leaders would disagree with you...
‘I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught. Must I, then, be thrown away as a thing of naught?’”- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 368
“I will make a statement here that has been brought against me as a crime, perhaps, or as a fault in my life. Not here, I do not allude to anything of the kind in this place, but in the councils of the nations that Brigham Young has said “when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.” I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible, and if you want to read revelation read the sayings of him who knows the mind of God, without any special command to one man to go here, and to another to go yonder, or to do this or that, or to go and settle here or there.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 261, October 6, 1870
“I have never preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 95
“Christ and his prophets go together... it is not possible to believe in one without believing in the other... by rejecting the prophets we reject Christ himself.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, cited in 1978 Devotional Speeches of the Year: BYU Devotional and Addresses, 1978, p. 118
“Second, in the midst of all these things, Joseph like his colleague prophets was so busy being a special witness for the Savior that he had little time to heed all of the false witness being borne about him. Joseph was usually more inclined to endure than explain himself, even though the drumbeat of dissent was at certain points almost unrelieved. In Nauvoo, in March 1842, for instance, while intensively engaged “day and evening” in translating the Book of Abraham, he said that he simply did not have time to attend to all his public duties. His duties as a seer were more important than his ceremonial chores.
Joseph did not respond at times, of course, such as by issuing a summational disclaimer as from the temple stand in Nauvoo, saying, “I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught.”
- Apostle Neal A. Maxwell, Meek and Lowly, pp. 105-106
“My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.”
- Prophet Heber J. Grant, as quoted by Apostle Marion G. Romney in “The Covenant of the Priesthood,” Ensign, July 1972, p. 98
Thank you for a wonderful post...
Lots of great nuggets
:)
:) Thank you, sister.
Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:1, 2
You’re most welcome
:)
Amen. With the coming of Christ and the Holy Spirit, there is no longer a need for prophets. Excellent verse.
Hey I got 888
what does that mean ????
:)
infinity x3, sideways?
Eh ???
:)
you have freepmail
so do you
:)
There is nothing you can post that I have not read somewhere along the line and you do not understand the word perfect according our doctrine.
It is like a orchard when the fruit is ripe than it is if complete and that is what perfect means not flawless just ready and will continue on the journey of endless learning the ways of the Lord.
You can read into things what you want but what is in the LDS Standard Works is doctrine and nothing else!
what is in the LDS Standard Works is doctrine and nothing else!
_____________________________________________
Exactly where in the book of mormon are the following doctrines taught?
1. God has a body of flesh and bones.
2. God is an exalted man.
3. God is a product of eternal progression.
4. The plurality of gods.
5. God “organized” the world rather than “creating” it.
6. There is no eternal hell and punishment.
7. Men can become gods.
8. “Intelligences” are eternal.
9. Pre-existing spirits of man.
10. Marriage for eternity.
11. Polygamy is not an abomination in the sight of God.
12. Three degrees of glory.
13. A “mother” in heaven.
14. A “Melchizedek priesthood” consisting of the offices of elder, seventy and high priest.
15. An “Aaronic priesthood” consisting of the offices of deacon, teacher and priest.
16. Blacks were ever to be denied the priesthood.
17. The functions and offices of evangelist, bishoprics, stake presidency,
18. Assistants to the twelve, a first presidency and a president of the “church”.
19. The book of mormon is the “Stick of Joseph.”
You can read into things what you want but what is in the LDS Standard Works is doctrine and nothing else!
- - - - - - - - - -
I do understand, I was there once remember?
Conference talks are not in the “standard” works. Of course neither are Temple rituals.
Careful resty, you are again disagreeing with your leaders....
Rather than post ALL of those quotes again, I will refer you to my earlier post that puts conference talks on par with scripture.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2235421/posts?page=761#761
Did you know that the “word of wisdom” came aboput because Emma was tired of cleaning up tobacco juice of her floors after the “meetings” of bro Joe and his homies ???
Yeah. She was also tired of the drunkenness in the temple, IIRC.
Wine and Visions
One anti-Mormon writer claimed that the witnesses to the Book of Mormon were drunk at the time they received their vision concerning the plates. We have been unable to find any evidence to support this accusation. There is, however, evidence to show that wine was used to excess in the Kirtland Temple at the very time the Mormons were claiming to receive important revelations. William Harris made this report in 1841:
479
480
In the evening, they met for the endowment. The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper. Smith knew well how to infuse the spirit which they expected to receive; so he encouraged the brethren to drink freely, telling them that the wine was consecrated, and would not make them drunk ... they began to prophecy, pronouncing blessings upon their friends, and curses upon their enemies. If I should be so unhappy as to go to the regions of the damned, I never expect to hear language more awful, or more becoming the infernal pit, than was uttered that night (Mormonism Portrayed, pp.31-32).
Charles L. Walker, a faithful Mormon, recorded the following in his diary:
Sun., Nov. 21,1880.... Bro. Milo Andress ... Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in the Kirtland Temple. Said he once asked the Prophet who [why?] he (Milo) did not feel that power that was spoken of as the power which was felt on the day of Pentecost? ... when we had fasted for 24 hours and partaken of the Lord’s supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire (”Diary of Charles L. Walker,” 1855-1902, excerpts typed, 1969, p.35).
The statement by Mormon Apostle George A. Smith would also lead a person to believe that wine was used to excess: “... after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread.... they ate and drank.... some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped into the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216).
In a statement dated February 27, 1885, Mrs. Alfred Morley charged: “I have heard many Mormons who attended the dedication, or endowment of the Temple, say that very many became drunk.... The Mormon leaders would stand up to prophesy and were so drunk they said they could not get it out, and would call for another drink. Over a barrel of liquor was used at the service” (Naked Truths About Mormonism, Oakland, Calif., April, 1888, p.2). Isaac Aldrich said that his brother “Hazen Aldrich, who was president of the Seventies, told me when the Temple was dedicated a barrel of wine was used and they had a drunken ‘pow-wow’ “ (Ibid., p.3). Stephen H. Hart said that a Mormon by the name of McWhithey told him that “they passed the wine in pails several times to the audience, and each person drank as much as he chose from a cup. He said it was mixed liquor, and he believed the Mormon leaders intended to get the
480
481
audience under the influence of the mixed liquor, so they would believe it was the Lord’s doings.... When the liquor was repassed Mr. McWhithey told them he had endowment enough...” (Ibid. , p.3).
The reader will remember that David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, called the endowment “a trumped up yarn” and said that “there was no visitation” (The Des Moines Daily News, October 16, 1886). William E. McLellin, who had served as an Apostle in the Mormon church, commented: “As to the endowment in Kirtland, I state positively, it was no endowment from God. Not only myself was not endowed, but no other man of the five hundred who was present - except it was with wine” (True Latter-Day Saints’ Herald, XIX, 437, as cited in Hearts Made Glad, p.137).
The fact that the Mormons fasted for some time and then drank an excessive amount of wine probably led many of them to curse their enemies and to believe they had seen visions.
LaMar Petersen has detailed the problems relating to the Kirtland Temple and the Word of Wisdom in his book, Hearts Made Glad—The Charges of Intemperance Against Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet.
Jerasld and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism The Word of Wisdom, Chapter 18, Pp 479-482)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.