THE FOUR LAST THINGS PART II. THE LAST JUDGMENT VII Christ will take His Place on the Judgment-seat

Actually, when it comes to missing positions, I think that my question was missed. I was asking about the motivation for attacking Catholics while misstating what we believe or insisting that we believe what we don't believe (or at least don't THINK we believe).

It's more than a flies -- honey v. vinegar question. As a rule I am not motivated to "recruit" or "correct" Protestants, unless they ask me something or say something about what I believe or do. And I'm certainly not motivated to persist in repeatedly painting all Protestantism with one broad brush.

Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P. who teaches history at UVA even says Calvin is his favorite Protestant theologian, and I hope to have time, this summer to chat with him about Calvin. I don't expect that we will work ourselves into a dither about how dreadfully wrong he is.

As to my Protestant upbringing shining through, I think I get what you're saying, but I think to oppose it to the Church is silly. I was sharing with a convert who was received and confirmed at this year's Vigil how, for me, being Catholic has freed me more that I imagined to enjoy ever more deeply my relationship with Jesus and to trust in Him ever more fully. In my daily prayers, and Masses and Rosaries when time permits, I don't think about "merit" or "indulgences" or things of that kind. When I suggested to my chapter of Lay Dominicans that we try a new way of praying the Rosary, I did point out that St. Richard de Montfort writes that doing it that way produces some indulgence or other, but it was strictly for laughs, and laughs were what I got.

I sometimes get the impression that Protestants think of us as hag-ridden with guilt and exhausted with innumerable devotions, pieties, candles, and all that. I DO sometimes buy a candle and light it in front of our big ol' fiberglass (okay, resin, really) statchoo of the Theotokos, but I do it because it's pretty, and I, old and no longer lovely, like to do a pretty thing now and again.

The Lord may have be in derision, but He graciously shares the joke and permits me to join Him in the laughter.

Knock, knock; reality calling. What NT scriptures did the Church have and at what time? You give the letters to Thessalonians and Colossians as evidence.

No...Jesus gives these letters as evidence...The fact that you don't want to believe what Jesus says because your church says otherwise doesn't change a thing...

When were these written and even more important, when were they recognized as Scripture

Well I don't know Mr. Reality...The Apostle Peter called them scriptures...So they obviously were known as Scriptures as they were being written...

and when and where and how were they copied out and distributed. Anti Catholics don’t get that there were NO emails or other forms of mass distribution of information. Works were copied out by hand and the Church was far flung - journeys took weeks or months.

Hey, maybe they had donkeys to ride on...

Jesus by Himself covered a great deal of area in just 3 years...He has many disciples that he sent out as well...

Thousands were saved at Pentecost...From all over the known world...

No doubt there was a church at every bus stop...John Wesley covered a pretty good territory on a horse...Apparently if the 'net' goes down, your church is in real trouble, eh???

The Church was entirely oral for a whole generation after Christ and only gradually when the people realized that Christ was not coming back immediately that they started writing things down.

Now is that Mr. Reality speaking, or Mr. Guesser??? I got news for ya...When Paul met with Jesus, Jesus gave him more information that what Paul wrote or spoke...Paul picked Timothy to go on after him because he knew Jesus wouldn't be there in his life time...And Paul preached for years...

When the adoption of the Gentile church was revealed to Paul, the message was not that Jesus was coming back tomorrow...

Your religion is an invention...And God didn't invent it...

***This cannot be entirely true, since the Church selected the Gospel, preserved it, and gave it to the world. You say the Gospel; how do you know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are correct? How do you know that the Gospel of Thomas or Peter or Judas are not correct? Outside of the Church, where are your proofs?
Ha...Your boat don’t float...

Like Jesus said, if your second pope knew what the scripture was, your 80th pope knows as well...All has to do with Apostolic succession...So the fact that you had to have a council of Catholics determine what the scripture was, means you have no Apostolic succession...

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What you are saying goes against what the Holy Spirit says...

The scriptures are those words and acts that Jesus said and did which the Holy Spirit put into remembrance of the Apostles that they could accurately write the scriptures...***

What parallel dimension are you coming from? Do you even comprehend what I posted?

I asked you where your proofs are. You have presented none.

The NT Scripture was selected by the Council of Nicea.

How does the Council of Nicea prove that there is no Apostolic Succession?

***What you are saying goes against what the Holy Spirit says...

The scriptures are those words and acts that Jesus said and did which the Holy Spirit put into remembrance of the Apostles that they could accurately write the scriptures...***

Most of the NT is not what Jesus said and did - it is about the various epistle writes plus the Acts of the Apostles. The Gospels are about what Jesus said and did. How do you know that the NT is accurate if you repudiate the Council of Nicea?

***Those people knew exactly what the scriptures were...And here comes your group 350 years later creating it’s own group of scrptures and claiming them for ‘real’...

The gospel was preached for 350 years...Do you realize how long that is??? And your church says it’s not real...***

Again with the parallel dimension. There were 60 Gospels that we know of and perhaps another 20 more that are alluded to. Do you have clue one as to the conditions in those days?

***It’s a fact that your religion created it’s own bible 350 years after Jesus was crucified and the actual gospels had been in circulation for those 350 years...But Jesus already revealed your tricks long before you put them into practice...***

Where is the Shepherd of Hermas in your Bible? Enoch? And why was Revelation included? Give me your proofs please.

***The salvation that I own and the scriptures I read have zero connection with your religion...***

You own your own salvation? The Church of Iscool (population one) has issued salvation. All gather round and witness the unbelieveable.

And, it’s not my religion. It’s Christ’s.

***Knock, knock; reality calling. What NT scriptures did the Church have and at what time? You give the letters to Thessalonians and Colossians as evidence.

No...Jesus gives these letters as evidence...The fact that you don’t want to believe what Jesus says because your church says otherwise doesn’t change a thing...***

When were these letters written and when were they widely circulated? And when were accepted by the Church as Scripture? Reality.

***When were these written and even more important, when were they recognized as Scripture

Well I don’t know Mr. Reality...The Apostle Peter called them scriptures...So they obviously were known as Scriptures as they were being written... ***

Are you referred to 2 Peter? That wasn’t written until the middle of the 2nd Century. How can you hang your proofs on that?

***and when and where and how were they copied out and distributed. Anti Catholics don’t get that there were NO emails or other forms of mass distribution of information. Works were copied out by hand and the Church was far flung - journeys took weeks or months.

Hey, maybe they had donkeys to ride on...

Jesus by Himself covered a great deal of area in just 3 years...He has many disciples that he sent out as well...

Thousands were saved at Pentecost...From all over the known world...

No doubt there was a church at every bus stop...John Wesley covered a pretty good territory on a horse...Apparently if the ‘net’ goes down, your church is in real trouble, eh???***

The ignorance of the current generation astounds me. Let me remind you of the conditions of those days. 99% of the people were illiterate - only the merchants and the ruling class had schooling. 99% of the people were serfs or bondsmen of some sort and had no ability to travel any distances. There were only a few of the early Christian evangelizers and bishops to travel a territory that went throughout the Middle East, North Africa, southern Europe, and east through Mesopotamia into India. Millions upon millions of square miles. And the evangelizers were not of sufficient cash to afford horses. You have no clue, do you?

***The Church was entirely oral for a whole generation after Christ and only gradually when the people realized that Christ was not coming back immediately that they started writing things down.

Now is that Mr. Reality speaking, or Mr. Guesser??? I got news for ya...When Paul met with Jesus, Jesus gave him more information that what Paul wrote or spoke...Paul picked Timothy to go on after him because he knew Jesus wouldn’t be there in his life time...And Paul preached for years...***

In a rather incoherant way you have confirmed my post. The first generation of the Church was entirely oral.

***Your religion is an invention...And God didn’t invent it...***

I don’t have a religion; I am privileged to follow Christ and the Institution that He created. Jesus Christ did not invent the Church of Iscool (population one).

In a rather incoherant way you have confirmed my post. The first generation of the Church was entirely oral.

Anything but believe God...Your religion corrupted the word of God back then, and it continues to do so today...

2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Whatever was preached by mouth was in totoal agreement with what was written in the epistles...Andything more, or less is the tradition of man and your religion...

Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Did Paul say Tradition??? Of course not...That shows us that whatever tradition Paul spoke of was identical to the epistle, the written words of God...

And you ought to be ashamed for claiming otherwise..

Rom 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.1Th 5:27

An awfully lot of reading going on back in the day...So much so that Paul says the brethern should shut out anyone who does not abide by the written epistles...Those epistles are the only and FINAL authority...

Don't like what God says, create your own Tradition...Oh I see, you've already don that...

Are you referred to 2 Peter? That wasn’t written until the middle of the 2nd Century. How can you hang your proofs on that?

So Peter was about 150 years old when he wrote that epistle, eh???

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Now there's another slap upside your head by God...You ought to be gettin' a headache pretty soon...You are showing me that your religion is all about your religion and your coucils and your man made tradition...Do you ever consult with the word of God???

Of course I have a clue...Lots of them...I believe the word of God...

You figure God told them to preach the Gospel to the whole world and didn't give them the means to do so??? You figure only the homeless and downtrodden became Christians??? Study God's word...He'll show you otherwise...

You own your own salvation? The Church of Iscool (population one) has issued salvation. All gather round and witness the unbelieveable.

You betcha I do (own my salvation)...God gave it to me...It was a free Gift and you nor your church nor anyone else can take it from me...

***In a rather incoherant way you have confirmed my post. The first generation of the Church was entirely oral.

Anything but believe God...Your religion corrupted the word of God back then, and it continues to do so today...***

What do you know of the word of God? In your post, you give me Paul, Paul, Acts, Acts, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul and Paul. Not a word from Jesus anywhere; in your posts to me (and to others), you rarely quote Jesus; you merely attribute things to Him.

I gave you a whole series of Paul that insisted that Tradition be followed; you give me some back some of which do and some don’t. And? Have you fallen into the trap that many of the Reformers do - to randomly send unrelated quotes of Paul into the fray hoping that one will stick?

Duelling verses?

***Now there’s another slap upside your head by God...You ought to be gettin’ a headache pretty soon...You are showing me that your religion is all about your religion and your coucils and your man made tradition...Do you ever consult with the word of God???***

What are you talking about? Paul was telling a specific church in a specific letter specific things. This was not considered Scripture at that point and it wasn’t for many decades that they started to be copied out and made their way around the Church.

Think of the times, man. There were no emails or fax machines or airplanes or radios or telephones.

***An awfully lot of reading going on back in the day...So much so that Paul says the brethern should shut out anyone who does not abide by the written epistles...Those epistles are the only and FINAL authority...***

By whom? 99% of the first generation of Christians were illiterate. This letter was not considered Scripture. Paul just wanted to make sure that his jurisdiction as bishop was clear.

***Of course I have a clue...Lots of them...I believe the word of God...***

Name one of them. You don’t quote much word of God; you have shown that you cherry pick Paul, much as the Reformed do; you only pick differently and interpret what you do pick differently.

***You betcha I do (own my salvation)***

You oughta hang out with the LDS. They can become their own gods.

***God gave it to me...It was a free Gift and you nor your church nor anyone else can take it from me...***

Sounds like you’re doing a bangup job in rejecting it, though.

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