Posted on 04/06/2009 4:48:19 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
Excellent. Thank you.
Pre-Wrath means, IMHO, the period of time just before God pours out His wrath on the unbelievers and the anti-Christ. He will take us out before that happens but just before. There are two book written on the subject that I’ve read, one is “The Sign” and the other is “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church” by Marvin Rosenthal, a Jewish believer who always believed in Pre-Trib rapture until he started doing research for himself. When he changed his viewpoint, MANY Christians dropped him from speaking at their churches, etc. He paid a price.
I read it to. He came to speak in our church for several days and evenings and explained things to us very clearly.
P.S., I pray to be ready whenever we go up. I’ve got my ticket...
I believe God's Torah is the 'mark' of God.
Exodus 13
(9) And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the law of YHWH may be in thy mouth; for with a strong hand hath YHWH brought thee out of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 11
18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
from the Hebrew
226 'owth oth probably from 225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.:--mark, miracle, (en-)sign, token.
1) sign, signal
a) a distinguishing mark
b) banner
c) remembrance
d) miraculous sign
e) omen
f) warning
2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof
from the Hebrew
2903 towphaphah to-faw-faw' from an unused root meaning to go around or bind; a fillet for the forehead:--frontlet. 1) bands, phylacteries, frontlets, marks
Wouldn’t they be the Bride of Christ when they finally receive him into their lives? They certainly had plenty of time before the tribulation period to receive Him. Maybe they had to learn the hard way?
My understanding of that, having talked to my former Catholic pastor this morning, is that Christ was the fulfillment of all the ancient feasts and that the Sabbath was the old way. They changed it because now that the Christ came and fulfilled all the old ways, they didn’t need to celebrate Sabbath anymore and made it the day he rose from the grave. I’m paraphrasing and hoping I’m remembering it clearly. LOL.
We talked about the Temple this morning at breakfast in our home with friends who had been to Israel, one about 30 years ago and one last year. Our pastor said that the problem with having the Temple built right now is that there aren’t that many people who can trace their lineage to the Levites, and aren’t the Levites the only ones who can conduct worship there? Now, when we see them coming forth, perhaps that’s another sign of the soon-coming of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and not be surprised.
None of us really knows whether it’s pre-mid-post or pre-wrath. Just be ready when the train comes...
Did you expect the Catholic church to say anything otherwise?
And NO, I do NOT believe the final product was successful nor error free, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
Much clearer.
We have a basic disagreement . . .
You seem to believe that Holy Spirit was incapacitated in terms of His ability to insure that The Canon included all and only all that God wanted in The Canon.
I believe the opposite.
If the above is an accurate summary, then
I think I understand, now.
Throughout Scripture, God moved on fallible men to accomplish HIS purposes.
Moses got rather precise plans for the Tabernacle rather successfully.
Noah built a rather precise ark rather successfully.
David slung a stone at Goliath rather successfully.
Joshua handled Jericho per God’s specific instructions rather precisely and successfully.
Solomon built the Temple rather precisely and successfully.
St Paul seems to have managed a number of missionary journeys rather precisely and successfully with Holy Spirit changing Paul’s plans from time to time rather unexpectedly.
Even the Roman soldiers and the Jewish religious leaders—evidently by Holy Spirit’s agency—”managed” the Crucifixion and garden tomb rather precisely and successfully per Biblical prophecies they had no clue about.
. . .
Yet, by 300-400 years later . . . is it your conviction . . . that
Holy Spirit had become old and feeble and unable to fully manage compiling The Canon precisely and successfully . . . or what?
I still have a hard time understanding this seems to imagine God’s Holy Spirit to be limited in achieving God’s goals.
Yeah, since November 4th, LOL. (I’m serious.)
Holy Spirit can do whatever God wishes. Having created all that is . . . men are not exactly impossible projects for Him.
It has been my observation, however, that Holy Spirit prefers to avoid being heavy handed.
He CAN and on occasion does INSURE something happens precisely regardless.
He seems to PREFER to nudge believers and even others along in gentle ways to achieve precise results.
You seem to have a comprehension problem so this will be my last post to you.
I NEVER said the Holy Spirit was incapacitated! LOL!
I said fallible men chose to do as they pleased. I believe that is called FREE WILL.
Seems to me the comprehension problem may be elsewhere.
1. EITHER HOLY SPIRIT HAD THE CAPACITY AND THE WILL TO INSURE THAT FALLIBLE MEN COMPLIED PRECISELY THE CANON GOD WANTED
OR
2. HE DID NOT.
3. You assert that the precisely God-willed Canon was not produced.
4. So, which did Holy Spirit lack—the capacity or the will or both to insure that fallible men achieved God’s precise objective?
5. I don’t see any other alternatives. Are you hiding some other alternative in Alice’s rabbit hole? If so, please let us know what it is.
I believe there is a robust and authentic degree and form of FREE WILL.
I’m not a Calvinist.
By the same token, FREE WILL is not 100% ABSOLUTELY FREE.
NOR are things 100% determined, as I construe Biblical and ‘normal’ reality.
Somehow, twixt the two, God achieves HIS purposes without totally trashing our perceived reality of an authentic degree of FREE WILL and without abandoning 100% of God’s influences on our FREE WILL.
and . . .
Scripture insists that the steps of a righteous man are ordered of The Lord.
oist #148
I didn’t realize
That someone calling themselves a “Christian”
believed that Holy Spirit went back to Heaven or had
HIS HANDS AND VOICE TIED AND SILENCED
during that process.
I’m sure God is impressed that you’ve declared Him incompetent and/or AWOL in the compiling of The Canon.
I don’t understand this, what do you mean?
Would those you live with characterize you as equally brittle with them as your presentation hereon might indicate?
If so, I’m sure there are better ways to present one’s personality.
LOL.
For more than three hundred years the Doctors of the Church debated the issue. Some material was excluded, and some was included after great debate. I can think of no one or no occasion when God spoke to church leaders and demanded that Revelation either be included or excluded. The New Testament may be the word of God, but its organization (and translation) was man-made.
145 posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 3:53:15 PM by Melchior
I’m trying to say . . . that God The Holy Spirit had no trouble arriving at precisely The Canon of Scripture that God The Holy Spirit wanted . . . even though it involved fallible people and a process.
Actually, the process was essentially the same outlined in I Cor 14 for vetting a prophetic utterance.
It’s just that 300-400 years of process can be a bit more THROUGH THE REFINER’S FIRES than a 20 minute deliberation. And, the arriving at The Canon process was considerably more important to God and Man than vetting a modern prophetic utterance is.
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