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To: Stourme; Godzilla; Elsie; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; ejonesie22
Amazing isn't it? All those people were excommunicated. Some became enemies of the Church. But not a single one ever recanted their testimony of seeing the plates. After being excommunicated from the Church, Oliver Cowdery was practicing law and in court was asked about his name being on the Book of Mormon. Even though he was not LDS and would suffer personal loss at the hands of anti-Mormons, Oliver refused to deny the truth: 'There is my name attached to that book, and what I have there said that I saw, I know that I saw, and belief has nothing to do with it, for knowledge has swallowed up the belief that I had in the work, since I know it is true.' -Oliver Cowdery That makes Oliver's testimony that much more powerful. He wasn't a member of the Church. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose...Oliver could have made up any lie he wanted and the anti-Mormons would have lauded him as a hero. But instead...Oliver told the truth. He had actually seen the plates and he couldn't deny it. ["Stourme"]

Let's define how the earliest Mormon apostates defined "see," shall we?

Like spiritual forefather, like spiritual son. Note: 2 of the 3 "witnesses" on the title page of the Book of Mormon both say they saw Joseph Smith's phantom "plates of gold" with eyes of faith: David Whitmer, one of the witnesses who was later ex-communicated by the LDS church, one whom Smith called a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings" (see History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 228) said he saw these gold plates "by the eye of faith." [Eye of faith quotation source: The Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831] (BTW, by 1847, Whitmer told Oliver Cowdery that he was the prophet of the New Church of Christ.)

Another original Book of Mormon "witness," Martin Harris, was a Quaker-turned-Universalist-turned-Restorationist-turned-Baptist-turned-Presbyterian-turned-Mormon (And that was only before his conversion to Mormonism). After his conversion (after the LDS Church kicked him out, that is), he changed religions 8 more times (including with the Shakers, where he said he had a stronger testimony there than with the Mormons) & then joined a Mormon break-off group, the Strangites. If you check out a book, Gleanings by the Way, Harris said he saw the gold plates with "eyes of faith and not with natural eyes."

All those people were excommunicated. Some became enemies of the Church. But not a single one ever recanted their testimony of seeing the plates. ["Stourme"]

Well, maybe that's where the word "spiritualize" came from -- Mormon apostates who saw things with "spiritual eyes." Who cares about recantation or not when the original testimony came from the likes of a Quaker-turned-Universalist-turned-Restorationist-turned-Baptist-turned-Presbyterian-turned-Mormon-turned-Shakers-turned-7-additional-religions...and I guess since you put so much weight on the testimonies of these apostates, then you must believe Shakerism is even more true than Mormonism--if you want to believe Martin Harris' testimony!

313 posted on 03/28/2009 8:22:30 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Same Martin Harris who testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism and that the Shaker’s “Sacred Roll and Book” was also delivered by an angel.


314 posted on 03/28/2009 8:31:33 AM PDT by Godzilla (If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem)
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