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To: Old Mountain man; P-Marlowe; colorcountry; Godzilla

Oh Lord, how long will these excuses continue?

The LDS church would be greatly served, and taken much more seriously as a faith, if they would just admit the problems in their history and apologize. The Catholics have done it. The protestants have done it. But this constant excuse making and double-speak weakens their credibility.

As far as FAIR/FARMS. I believe they are “lying for the Lord.” I have read their stuff and am yet to be convinced by their arguments (as is every other Religious Historian - even the atheists - that I know). Outside of Mormonism, FARM/FAIR is not taken as serious scholarship, sorry but it true.


168 posted on 03/24/2009 7:58:54 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian. "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Perhaps because none of the incidents spoken of were so-called blood atonement and even the Tanners know it. Talking about lying for the Lord.

It is my experience that people like them and most of the anti’s on FR will say ANYTHING to make us look bad.


169 posted on 03/24/2009 8:10:54 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Blessed be the Peacemaker.)
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To: reaganaut; Old Mountain man; P-Marlowe; colorcountry; Godzilla
If it was never taught - why do so many mormons believe it?

In a 1994 article entitled "Concept of Blood Atonement Survives in Utah Despite Repudiation," Peggy Fletcher Stack, staff writer for the Salt Lake Tribune, wrote, "In the past decade, potential jurors in every Utah capital homicide were asked whether they believed in the Mormon concept of 'blood atonement'" (11/5/94, p.D1)

While trying to deny it, McConkie confirmed the practice "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, Pg. 92).

“I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, ‘We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;’ and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 179, February 18, 1855

“If men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants.”
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 375

“We would not kill a man, of course, unless we killed him to save him...”
- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, Deseret News, July 27, 1854

“... We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ’s] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action.”
- Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Apostle, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 299, 1859

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

“Just last month, attorneys for condemned child-killer James Edward Wood in Pocatello, Idaho, argued that his defense was undermined by a visit from local [Mormon] church leaders who talked to him about shedding his own blood.... “His [Wood’s] attorneys contend Wood is a victim of a Mormon belief in ‘blood atonement.’ ... Judge Lynn Winmill... heard hours of testimony during the past week about Mormon doctrine on apostasy and forgiveness of sin. Wood’s lawyers even asked the bishop who presided over the church court that excommunicated Wood about secret temple rituals involving symbolic throat and slashing or disembowelment, but Winmill did not require him to respond.”
- Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 5, 1994, p. D1, D5

“To whatever extent the preaching on blood atonement may have influenced action, it would have been in relation to Mormon disciplinary action among its own members. In point would be a verbally reported case of a Mr. Johnson in Cedar City who was found guilty of adultery with his step-daughter by a bishop’s court and sentenced to death for atonement of his sin. According to the report of reputable eyewitnesses, judgment was executed with consent of the offender who went to his unconsecrated grave in full confidence of salvation through the shedding of his blood. Such a case, however primitive, is understandable within the means of this doctrine and the emotional extremes of the [Mormon] reformation.”
- Dr. Gustive O. Larson, BYU Professor, Utah Historical Quarterly, Jan. 1958, p. 62, note 39

170 posted on 03/24/2009 8:11:51 PM PDT by Godzilla (If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem)
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